TESTIMONIAL:

Hello my name is Sean Medina. I read your article on TTD vs. FST Tracking and completely understand and agree with the views expressed. I work with my local bloodhound team and think the bloodhound is great for missing persons and runaways, etc., but when you have an escaped convict or a hostile, they just aren't motivated enough to really want to find that person(s) when they are just expecting to get a treat or praise for their good work.

Sean Medina

This is the funniest thing I have seen since cartoons...gave me a good laugh.....Bloodhounds are not tracking dogs to begin with...there is a distinct difference...I worked both Bloodhounds and GSD and they are very different.....you go fella as you are very wrong in your summations......I suppose you believe women cannot work or train a dog as well...according to your mentality and false informaion on the bloodhound. JMO and experience in police work using both breeds...Michele Mckinney CHURCHIL BLOODHOUNDS EST.1979

www.bloodhounds.com/churchil
mmckinney - (mmckinney@tds.net)

My Response:

Good for you.

You must be a little insecure to bring this female issue into play. Why not bring up something about pit bulls, Iran and Iraq, deer hunting and mink release terrorists. They are all about as relevant to the subject as being a female.

You do confirm my point on bloodhounds, though. I lump people like you right in with people who own German Shepherds who say that because they have a German Shepherd they have a dog that will be a personal protection dog. Almost every aspect of dog training is not breed specific, it's temperament and drive specific. That is my point with a large number of bloodhound people like yourself.

I should remind people that when I refer to "tracking" in this article I am indeed refering to what some people call "trailing or man trainling or man tracking." What I am not refering to, when I talk about tracking is the sport style track such as they do in schutzhund. So maybe I should have made this point better in the article. But anyone who has watched my training tapes on "tracking through drive" knows that the kind of tracking police dogs do is not sport dog tracking.

Ed Frawley

Hey Ed who pissed on your corn flakes? In part we have our share of nut balls running behind the Bloodhound, but I have seen a large number of professional law officers that have swallowed the hook on the pointy ears.

Ask yourself a question? How many folks hunt ground traveling species with Shepards? I've never seen one. You make money selling shepards so therefore you have no bias against any other breed.

I personally know twenty Bloodhound handlers that will smoke the shit out of any shepard anywhere. Not just the substandard U S mutants. After reading your posting you have shown a serious lack of knowledge about the breed. I would never post my opinion about the pointy ears on the net, because it would serve no purpose other than to make me look foolish. I know a pile of shepard handlers that are a shame to the canine vocation. Some of that crap you wrote I can tell you your wrong and prove it.

If you have the balls to take a challenge we should set it up. I don't hate or even dislike you, I just feel sorry for what an ass you've made of yourself for this little outburst of emotion. Feel free to respond we haven't chatted for some time.

Brian Joyner
sooner7@centurytel.net

My Response:

The problem I talk about in this article is with people not dogs. It's with handlers who make stupid claims about the abilities of their dogs. If I honestly felt that the BH as a breed has a better nose than GSD's or Mals I would have no problem admitting it. I like good working dogs of every breed. I am about to buy a lab for my son to train.

If you read my tracking through drive (TTD) articles or watched my RCMP tapes you will see that there are a ton of good tracking dogs that train in the same fashion the BH people do - BH people did not invent TTD, the RCMP had a school doing this back in the 1930's.

The fact that the vast majority of GSD's and Mals in police work do not find a lot of people was not the issue. If you research what I have written you will see that I said that the average police dog team in America finds 3 % of the people they are sent to track (not wind scent). The average in Canada is 45 to 50% - what does that tell you? It tells me that there are a lot of dogs out there that do not track well. It also tells me that the RCMP do a better job selection testing their animals, they will very quickly wash out dogs that will not perform the task (much quicker than any American department can or will) and the handlers are held to a higher standard. It takes 20 weeks to complete their course and then they have to come back in a year for a review - in fact every year they have to re-certify. If a dog does not cut it on the street up there it is brought in for additional training or washed out. So if you would like to see some POINTY EARED dogs track go on up to canada. You may even want to go to Holland and look at their specialty tracking dogs. In Europe most departments recognize that certain individuals (not breeds) are exceptional tracking dogs and they make specialty dogs out of them.

The RCMP has only seen a couple of BH's that have attempted their Level 1 tracks (which civilian trainers must pass before they are allowed to do S&R work up there). There have been a lot of people up there make claims but when push comes to shove they don't show up for the tests. This does not speak well for the breed in Canada anyway. There are very clear rules about what is accepted in certification. It seems when that happens a lot of the trainers of every breed drop by the wayside.

The fact that I breed GSD's has nothing to do with this article. Not all of my dogs could function in the RCMP. Not all of the dogs I handled on the sheriff's department were good trackers either. That does not mean that I don't recognize bullshit when I see it. You and the other BH handlers that have brought up my breeding GSD's are just playing a little defensive posturing. This doesn't hold water.

These claims that have been made by BH handlers about following 3, 4 or 5 day old tracks or even 1 day old tracks in the center of the city simply do not hold water. They are not unknown tracks. It's one thing to run a known track and a totally different thing to run an unknown track. Unknown tracks separate the men from the bull.

In addition I do not need your sympathy about my decision to write this article. The men I respect as dog trainers and instructors all agree with it 100%

Ed Frawley

Hi Ed,

I am on that Bloodhound list and noticed today there were 25 messages for me to view. All relating to your article. Doubt if you would get that big a reaction if you were writing about their kids.

Further to the article. I wrote Law Enforcement Bloodhound Assoc. (LEBA), asked them if they knew of a working hound that could do a 1hr old city track a mile long consistantly under normal conditions. They thought there may be one in Detroit, but they weren't sure.

Also a bloodhound breeder from Ontario recently used the list to slam Ontario's LE officers for not calling Bloodhounds to do some of their work. I had to respond, and did so off the list telling her that there weren't any good working hounds in Ontario, period. Asked her to supply me with the name of one, and of course she hasn't time to train one or she would do it herself, doesn't have the name of anyone else either.

Your article is fine. Your web page will probably get a workout for awhile.

Take Care, Cam.

Ed

I have seen nice bloodhounds. I'll put CJ up against them though. I have been doign the dog thing for about 20 years now. Trained with hot shit bloodhound guys, Glen Remby for one. He could handle a bloodhound and track. No doubt about it. Yet, I am convinced that if I gave him a black lab the dog would perform the same way for him.

I also saw a video of a dog from Quebec doing a 12 mile track in the bush for a suspect. I also think the dog was great. But again, the dog didn't track any better than any other animal dedicated to a single specialty would. The thing that made this track special was that it was rugged country and it took a well built big tough dog to do the work regardless of tracking ability.

Kevin Sheldahl
K-9 Services
http://k9services.com/

Comment:

In my opinion Kevin is probably one of the best police K9 instructors in this country. I personally do not know anyone that is better. He is an Internatitonal Police Dog Judge for PSP, DPO and WPO. He is also in charge of training for the Burnalino County Sheirff's Department in NM, where he is a full time K9 officer.

You wrote a very interesting article. The funny part was that it shows that you need much more education about the working bloodhound, if you are to be taken seriously. Please come to some of the seminars so that you can see first hand, rather than relying on second or third hand information.

Oh, by the way, have you ever heard of a bloodhound by the name of Nick Carter? Or a gentleman by the name of Bill Tolhurst? I think you might have checked with Bill first about your information, and then read the history of the working bloodhounds in North America. There are several excellent books which were written in the early 50's and then into the 60's. Also, I would refer you to our British cousins: there is a wealth of information in the UK, historically and in the recent past. This information is documented. However, if you aren't going to believe facts and prefer hearsay, there really isn't anything anyone can do to change your mind.

I get the idea here that there is something behind the article: something personal, like being asked to leave a club, event, refusal of a reputable breeder to sell you a dog, etc. An article like this, which is not factual, usually has an underlying negative motivation.

Fortunately those of us, who are bloodhound handlers, can take your website with good humor. We may think it is a way to generate banner ad response, get e-mail or simply to start something. We know a joke when we see one. Thanks again for some humor in my day. And the offer for you to attend bloodhound seminars, etc. still stands. You just might learn something and have some fun with really great people and hounds. Warm regards, Kit Van Niman.

Kit Van Niman

Comment:

As a matter of fact I have heard of Tollerhurst. From what I have read about him he is part of the problem. A lot of goofy claims with no foundation. I suggest people go and read what Tollerhurst has written. I especially like the vacuum cleaner he used to suck up scent from the ground so that he could store it and then use this scent to scent discriminate individuals - very professional and scientific. Wonder how many cases he solved with that process. I realize that I am casting stones at the Bloodhound God but if the shoe fits so be it.

I am glad you saw a little humor in the article. I knew that I had it in my heart to put a smile on the face of a true beleiver.

Ed Frawley

Have you ever trained a Bloodhound?

I have spent thousands of hours training my BH. Bloodhounds have saved many lost kids and persons. I guess we are all to just throw away all the documented evidence of Bloodhound success over years of history and simply agree with you. Your qualifications again to make these claims? Until you have trained and run a hound, you are not qualified to make your claims. I agree with much you say about false miraculous claims made by many uneducated dog handlers, but I question your motives. You need to broaden your data base. I hope if you are ever lost in the wilderness a BH is not called to find you. Also I hope the few dollars you put in your pocket trashing this wonderful breed and the people who put in hours of volunteer search and rescue work bring you joy. If you have children, and they are someday lost I will do my best to find them and save them regardless of what you think or say.

Douglas Williams (aadog@home.com)

Comments:

As a matter of fact I have trained with a couple of Bloodhounds. One could track in the country and the other could not. Both were in law enforcement.

I do have to smile though. This article is not about trashing bloodhounds. It's about exposing the goofy handlers who make these bogus claims about their dogs. The people like you that get uptight about this must have blindly missed the parts of the article that say that this is not a breed issue but a handler breeder issue. Too many breeders make these claims that every dog from this breed is such a great tracking dog and that simply is not true.

I suggest that you read the articles on my web site about TRACKING THROUGH DRIVE (TTD). You will learn something about what I know about training dogs to find people and where I learned it.

So relax alittle and calm down. Unless you agree with all of the claims that these handlers make you have nothing to get so excited about.

Ed Frawley

Hi Ed,

I will try to keep this short. Was a dog handler for the York Regional Police in Canada. While there my big thing was tracking, and I researched it, worked hard at it. Had some good success.

Came across all these stories on Bloodhounds and aged trails. Had a hard time swallowing them but was convinced that it was worth a try. Got a pup and she didn't live up to the folklore even a bit. Ended up donating her to a S+R group in Duluth, MN where she is doing well, but she would never have been effective doing trails in a city type environment.

I am wanting to train another dog in my spare time, and won't try raising a pup again. I'd rather put out the coin for an adult. (live and learn I think it's called).

My question is this. Have you seen any Bloodhound that lives up to or even approaches the reputation that is out there? I believe there is a guy named Jerry Yelk that is from your part of the states that is supposed to have been some authority on this.

Thanks,
Cam McCrea

Comments:

I am sure there are good bloodhounds out there that can track. I personally have not seen any that I consider great, which certainly does not mean that there are none there. To me a great tracking (mantrailing) dog is one that can certify through Level 3 RCMP. To me a great tracking dog is one that can follow one or two hour old unknown tracks with a lot of distractions (i.e. other dogs, animals and crosstracks).

You have lost your mind.

You obviously do not live with one of these noses on legs. They can find anything, anytime, under any conditions. If they want to.

As the great man says, Nuff said.

Les

Comments:

Yah right Les :-)

You are exactly the reason I wrote this article. Sober up and face the truth.

Ed Frawley

TESTIMONIAL:

Ed,
First let me explain that I love ANY working dog, regard of breed. I have personally trained several bloodhounds, as well as treeing walkers, blueticks and various other hounds for everything from hunting to Man-trailing (the tracking you refer to in the article.) Your article was right on. FACT! - Some bloodhounds are outstanding, some are not. Now this go out to all the Fu&%$#ing stupid closed minded BH handlers. I handled an excellent S-A-R bloodhound, I knew his strengths and weaknesses. I was also open minded enough to realize when he could not do what was asked of him in a search situation. I went through 20 plus hounds before I found the one that could do the work I needed. If these closed minded BH handlers think that the BH is the end all in trailing dogs, then they have not trained enough dogs. Whether they believe it or not. EVERY BREED is a product of their genentics and environment. Not every puppy I produce can be an excellent tracking or trailing dog. Just because I own a nice quarter horse does not mean he can win the Kentucky Derby. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think your article was written to slam the bloodhound as a breed, but to say, “Hey, some of these things just are not accurate in relation to the breed as a whole.” Some of the statements made in the article by the Deputy are Outrageous at best. Oh, by the way, the dog I am now training for SAR tracking is a yellow labrador.

Jim Closson
Accanihaus@cs.com

COMMENT:

You should really do a more thorough study on the bloodhounds. Every Statement you printed is wrong.

Maybe you should consider going to a training seminar strictly for law enforcement bloodhounds and I think you will change your attitude.

We had a bloodhound follow an escaped in mate who took a bus to the city and the hound found him. Yes 5.2 miles down the road, to the bus stop,

in the house where the prisoner was hiding. Maybe the trainers you talked to about hounds need to be educated themselves.

Have a wonderful Day

Susan

ED'S COMMENT:

This is the exact bullshit I am talking about. Complete 100% bullshit. You’re an amateur trying to flop around in a professional world and you come off like a hack.

Email:

I read your articles last night on the web and your statements are crazy. Hounds can pick the correct track from several different tracks. You need to look at the difference between LE K9 training and SAR K9 training. You are correct a LE K9 is useless after an hour but I can show you several hounds that can do this older than an hour. Most LE departments dont have hounds because thay have one purpose not two or three things it can do. Thats a fact that cant be disputed by even RCMP. I will be more than happy to demo several hounds for you that can do exactly what you say they can do. Have you ever heard of Ventossa Kennel in Scotland Neck North Carolina? Maybe you should go visit them and Tracy Bowlin which is the trainer and owner. He trains all breeds for LE and SAR and he is an expert in the court of law. Ask him some of the things that you say can't be done. Like I said I will be glad to set up Demonstrations for yourself as well as others that says a hound cant do these things. Now, with that said the Bloodhound is not a miracle and a dog can't do it by htself. The problem is you very rarely get a good dog and a good handler that can read the dog. I do agree with one thing that you said and that is that not all Bloodhounds can do the job that is asked of him.

Carl Alexander
carl@bloodhound-rescue.com

Ed's Response:

Carl,

I appreciate your civilness here. Most responses only see what they want to see in the article I wrote. My main goal is to point out how many bad handlers of bloodhounds there are out there. Handler who many insane claims - like their dog can follow a vehicle once a suspect has gotten into the car. Sorry that does not happen and I will testify in court every day that that handler either lack experience or is a lair.

There is a case in federal court in Texas right now that I have supplied information statements on and will testify against this guy. He is an insult to hound handlers and he will and should lose this case.

Thanks for writing.

I know there are good hounds out there. But every one of them has a good handler that understands trailing and knows the minutes of his dog.

Regards,
Ed Frawley