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Dog Fights
More emails and comments on dog fights.
Share Your Photos & Stories
If you have any photos or stories of when you tried to break up a dog fight, we would like to hear about it and share it with others. Email us.
If you have come to this page more than likely you have issues with aggressive dogs. A number of pages on my web site (including this one) contain emails about dog fights. I have placed my personal comments under many of these emails.
In addition we offer training resources. I have produced DVD titled:
DEALING WITH DOMINAT AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS This DVD demonstrates how to break up a dog fight if you are alone.
Dealing
with
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Breaking Up a Dog Fight without Getting Hurt Podcast
Dog fights are violent, loud and dangerous events. I get emails every day on dog fights. As I wrote this description I got 2 emails. In email the family had two dogs. Their female GSD had just killed their dachshund. In the second email this family's dog had just been in a fight with a neighbors dog and done $1,400 damage.
In the mid 1990's I wrote an article on How to Break Up A Dog Fight - that article is still on my web site. This 52 Minute podcast is an update of that article. The information in the podcast has more details on making the decision of even trying to step in to break up a fight, it discusses many methods used to break up fights and it tells how to break up a fight when you are alone. There is an also extensive section on preventing dogs fights.
Our GSD KILLED our Daschund last night:
Something very terrible happened last night. Our 2 year old Female German Shepherd killed our 4 year old miniature daschund. The GS has always been a aggressive dog but a very good dog. Mellow, and lots of fun. Why would she do this? We are so hurt and don't know what to do. My husband said we MUST get rid of her as she can't be trusted. My 11 year old son got in the middle of this trying to pull the smaller dog away and got bit and had to have stitches. I am going to try find a home for her with no other pets and no children, although she has always been very good to my son. I don't think she would really ever harm him, but at this point I just can't be sure. I would love to keep her, I am so torn. The entire thing is just a sad deal.
Any advice?
Karalee
eBook |
Hi Ed,
I enjoy reading your articles on dog training and aggression on your web site. I am having trouble locating a solution to my problem.
Here is my situation:
I have a wife, an 18m old son, and two female dogs(boxer/mix and choc. lab).
The lab has an aggression problem with other dogs when out for walks. The other morning, my wife was walking her with a halti collar (I know you don't recommend it), and a smaller white terrier started approaching her (not on a leash). To make a long story short, the pressure of her pulling released the snap on the halti and she attacked the terrier. The owner of the dog and my wife, separated the two dogs and my wife then attached the leash to her regular nylon color. These people live four houses down from us and when my wife reached our next door neighbors house the terrier had run out toward our lab. Again, the strength of her pulling released the snap on the collar, and they got into again. My take is that we are both responsible for the fight because our lab was not properly trained and because their dog was not on a leash. So therefore, we have decided to pay for half of the medical bills to their dog ($1400).My first question is can she be trained using the methods you describe for bringing a new dog into the home, when I have a wife, a 18m old son, and another dog in the house?
My second question is am I correct that we should pay half for their medical bills? Seriously, I tried to find an answer on your web site. but since this is on odd situation I couldn't find a direct response.
My wife and I were about to settle on getting rid of her but when I read your articles I felt that I can change her.
Thanks so much for your time posting those articles I now have something to refer to!!
Dominic
eBook |
Photo by Jinn Sabarika ~ www.spiralingdreams.com
COMMENT:
Well, I just have to say thank you for writing and sharing this article. I am sorry to say I found it a day too late, as I sit here writing to you with both hands bandaged. I was trying to save my sheltie from a 90lb. Golden Retriever, who I was fostering. She was a sweet Golden, owner surrendered at 7 yrs. old because she attacked a friend's Lab. She showed no signs of aggression at my home for almost a week, except for fighting back when the other dogs got her for getting too close to their food. Then last night, she was looking at something in the dark and the Sheltie went to investigate, and she full on attacked her. I did everything you said not to do. I tried for the collars, but couldn't get it. Then I tried to grab the Golden and tried to get her to let go. The Golden jumped again and landed on top of me with the Sheltie in a death grip. I reached right in and tried to pry the Golden's mouth off, meanwhile, getting the crap bit out of my hands. I am sure it was my own dog, the sheltie, and she had no idea who she was biting. It was dark and I was out there alone screaming, bleeding, and losing the battle I was trying to stop. My husband heard the screams and came out and saved us. Neither dog had a single puncture wound. They were, however, sore from the beatings that my husband inflicted. He thought both dogs were attacking me! It was a bad experience. So looking for information on dog bites and what to do, I found your article. I have saved it, and will share it with the other fosters in my rescue if you don't mind. Wish I had found it before. Hopefully I will get it to someone else and save them from having the same experience. Thank you very much.
Debbie
North Carolina
A dog bite received when the owner tried
to break up a dog fight between her own dogs.
I'm from Australia and I came across your site while searching for how to break up dog fights in a safe manner. We have a 14month old male Pit Bull x American Staffy (Tyler) and a 16month old male Boxer x Staffy (Chino). We got both dogs at 8 weeks of age and they have lived and played together happily for nearly 12months with only minor dominance problems and a few small half-hearted fights which end before they really begin. These fights are usually initiated by Tyler - obviously the dominant one. However, in the past two months Tyler has attacked Chino twice and instigated a huge fight each time. Chino tries to get away but Tyler won't let up, so Chino ends up fighting to protect himself. Strangely, both times Chino has done more damage to Tyler than Tyler has done to him. Luckily injuries from both fights have been minor for both dogs, mostly scratches on the head and ears, which is amazing considering the viciousness and loudness of the fights. The evening before the second fight, Chino had injured his leg while playing, tearing the muscle away from the bone. He was therefore limping quite badly and was unable to get away from Tyler's attack. We are concerned that the fighting between the two dogs will get worse and after reading some of the other stories on the site, quite bluntly we don't want to come home to a mutilated or dead dog.
However for the majority of time we have no issues. When separated, for example when walked separately or if one dog is taken to the vet, the dogs pine for each other and are very excited to be reunited. They sleep together at night and through the day, and quite often Tyler sleeps with his head on Chino's body. We have spoken to a couple of vets, who aren't concerned with this behavior, believing it to be a normal occurrence between dogs who are reaching maturity and establishing their position in the pack (family). Chino appears to have been quite accepting of his role as the submissive dog, and is quite content to stand back and wait his turn, allowing Tyler to receive first pats, attention, treats etc.
I'm just curious as to what your opinion is on this, and whether you agree with the vets, or think the issue is more serious. I realize that your answer can't be overly specific due to the limited info supplied in my email, but any advice on training and avoiding fights etc would be appreciated.
Thanks, Mel.
ANSWER:
If you don't change the way that you live with these dogs, your problems have not even begun yet. What you are doing is so wrong it borders on dangerous. Either separate these dogs permanently or find a new home for one.
You need to read my articles on Dealing with the Dominant Dog, and Groundwork to Becoming Pack Leader. You should also read the Questions and Answers on Dominance and Aggression. I am confident that you have not done that yet.
I have owned extremely tough dogs for 35 years. There is an excuse for one fight. There is NEVER an excuse for 2.
Ground Work to Becoming a Pack Leader
eBook |
Mr. Frawley:
Warning: this is a long e-mail with lots of history. I hope you can help me with some advice. We have made up our mind that one of our two dogs must go, so that is settled. What is not settled is which one to keep. I'll give you the background, with the disclaimer that we were totally clueless and did everything wrong. Nearly 5 years ago, we adopted a 10-month old shitsu/terrier mix named "Mollie" from the SPCA. She had already been owned by two different people before we got her, and they warned us that she had some issues, but if we worked with hard with her, she would be a wonderful dog in a year or so, after she got to trust that we would not abandon her. The people who owned her before said they could not train her or potty train her. Other than a few puddles the first few days, we had no trouble potty training her. She had issues with abandonment, though, and would hide whenever she sensed we were going to leave the house. She also would stand on the bed (I know--bad move) and just stare at us, giving little gutteral barks and demanding attention. She was terrified of brooms. She seemed to alternate in her demeanor between being very passive and being aggressive--mostly aggressive for attention. We worked with her and a trainer, and with lots of work (and not letting her sleep on the bed anymore) we were able to break her of some of her strange behaviors. She never was crate-trainable, but all in all, she improved considerably and began to trust us. She walked well, sat, down-stayed, etc. She from the beginning was very sweet, and became sweeter and sweeter. She never barked (in fact we wondered if she had a voice, except for her ability to growl when playing tug of war with a toy--I know, another no-no). There were some bad behaviors that continued--she would sometimes try to force us to pet her or pay attention to her, wanted to be held a lot, would sometimes frantically jump at us or nip at our feet when we came home, etc. But we told ourselves that she had come miles and miles from where she started, and we could not expect her to be a totally normal dog.
Then one morning at 6:00am a frantic woman from down the hall banged on our apartment door. She had just been mugged at her car in the parking lot and needed help. We let her in, and my wife was holding Mollie as the woman told her what happened. My wife's heart began to race, and Mollie sensed her fear, and for the first time ever, began growling at the intruder, even barking a bit. This was the first time Mollie had ever done this. She had never before even barked to go outside, let alone at noises she heard or visitors. Since that morning, every sound she heard, every visitor, every passerby, Mollie has barked at and flung herself against the doors and windows in aggression. We also noticed that Mollie had a tendency to give "corrective" little nips when we would touch her or manipulate her in ways she did not like, and she once nipped lightly at a strange looking old lady who passed by our door just as we were leaving the apartment for a walk. After we had had Mollie a little over 2 years, we adopted a young cat. They hated each other the first two days, but then became friends who played and even sometimes slept together.
Then we moved to a single family home with a yard. Mollie took to it well, and calmed down a bit. She still barked at passersby and visitors, and still had the jumping and nipping issues, but seemed happier and calmer. So, we decided to get a second dog. The doctors had told us we could not have children, so our family would be animals! In the summer of 2003, we brought home a puppy named "Lucy". Lucy's mom is a big short haired hound dog, but she looks like a terrier mix with black poodle fur, so not sure what her dad was--maybe a mini poodle or something? Lucy grew up to be a 25 pounder (Mollie is 16 pounds) and much better behaved than Mollie, because we had her from a young age and were able to work on her. She does not demand attention, shows no aggression towards us or any visitors, minds well, is crate trained, etc. We made very few mistakes raising her, but we made all sorts of mistakes introducing her to Mollie. When Lucy was a pup we would scold Mollie heartily whenever she would attempt to correct Lucy with corrective bites or growls. We thought we were doing the right thing, but realized later that Mollie was trying to assert her dominance over Lucy. Because we scared Mollie so much yelling at her when she did this, she became sort of meek/passive-aggressive around Lucy. Then Lucy grew older and bigger than Mollie. Mollie was a daddy's girl but Lucy was a Momma's girl. She loved my wife and hardly noticed me. We started to notice as Lucy grew up that she showed some jealousy. She would stand between Mollie and my wife to keep her from getting attention. She began to also growl at her. She then started getting between her and growling and nipping or biting Mollie if she tried to come up to either of us. Mollie would sometimes go away and hide from her, and other times she would just stand her ground. At around 9 months old, Lucy was doing this very close to Mollie and Mollie would not leave. Her lip curled and she started a growl. Then they both rocketed into a vicious fight at our feet, and it was very hard to get them apart. This was the start of the nightmare. As Lucy got older, we had a few more of these incidents, until one in January of '04 that sent Mollie to the animal hospital for stitches. Every time it was hard to tell who started the fight, but Lucy was certainly the one who could have ended it if we had not intervened by dumping ice buckets on her or spraying her with a hose. We worked with both animals to try to make them mind better and be less distracted, and we got to be able to tell when they were getting in that mode where a fight might erupt and so were able to keep them apart at those times. Lucy got older, calmed down, and the fights ceased. Only occasional nips would occur. All in all, they were best buddies. We sighed with relief, but not complete relief. We could not help but worry--it seemed like they had never really worked out the pecking order. Lucy was certainly an alpha between the two of them, but it did not seem like Mollie had really accepted that. Also, Lucy continued (and still does) to constantly assert her dominance over Mollie--nipping at her to keep her from us, never letting her go through doorways ahead of her, etc.
Then 11 months ago, our baby girl was born (the doctors were wrong!). Neither dog has showed any aggression to her. Mollie tolerates her touching her a bit more than Lucy. Lucy just mainly tries to avoid her, but has shown a bit of an increased interest and less fear lately. If she starts to bother either of them, they just walk away, though I sometimes worry that Mollie may try one of her corrective nips. She has not yet nipped our daughter, but has looked like she was on the verge a couple times. Obviously, we are very careful, always watch them with her and her with them, and minimize contact. The only real change we have noticed is that Mollie sleeps under the bed a lot during the day (she never did that before) and we have started to see some occasional pee stains on the carpet. We have never caught Mollie doing it, but we think she's the one who started it, given her personality and past history. We did catch Lucy peeing a few weeks ago, but we are pretty sure it's because she smells Mollie's spots (but we may be wrong). Obviously with a baby in the house, neither dog (nor the cat) is getting as much attention as before, but they seem to have adjusted well.
Now we come to the reason for my e-mail. Just yesterday both the dogs were in the back yard and we were inside. I heard every dog in the neighborhood start to bark and whine, and heard Mollie's yelps. I ran outside and saw Lucy on Mollie, pinning her down and repeatedly biting and growling her and shaking her in her jaws. At this point, Mollie was not fighting back--only yelping in pain and trying to get free. I sprayed water on them and Lucy was startled long enough to let Mollie loose. I had to grab Mollie fast, as Lucy, now recovered, was trying to go after her again. I have no idea who started it, but Lucy was determined to end it. Mollie had to have stitches in 4 different places and a drainage tube on her leg to avoid infection in a particularly deep bite. She is re coving in a private room away from Lucy. Lucy has no marks on her other than a slightly reddened eye. This tells us that Mollie was much more passive in this fight than previous fights. In previous fights, while Mollie got more injured, she fought back and gave some teeth to Lucy--more than just self defense.
With a kid in the house we just do not have the time or money to deal with these issues, and are worried for our child's safety should another fight like this break out in front of her. Our first thought was that Lucy should be the one to go--she is the one who is aggressive toward Mollie and hurt her so bad. If she is capable of doing that to Mollie in a fit of rage, what could she do to Sarah? And Mollie didn't even fight back really.
Then we started comparing their behavior with humans. The only bad behaviors Lucy has she learned from Mollie: She barks at strangers if Mollie does, and she jumps up on people sometimes, though not nearly as much as Mollie. She does not growl at people, lets you take a toy away, lets you manipulate her to the point of hurting her without protest, sits and stays real well, etc. Mollie nips, barks at everyone other than us (even at us if she wants attention), jumps up on you, growls if you try to take a toy away, nips your feet and jumps up when you come home, etc. Both listen well and do the sit and down-stay real well. Both are loving and sweet. Both seem to do OK with the baby so far. Further complicating our decision was that when my wife picked up Mollie from the vet, a trainer/behaviorist talked to her about our problem, and said that she thought we should not get rid of Lucy, that Mollie was the one who we needed to work with on training. She said that it takes both dogs to start a fight and that Lucy was dominant and Mollie had not accepted this and was doing something to make Lucy fight with her. She of course thought we should keep both and enroll us/mollie in training with a behaviorist.
We have been down this road, and as hard as it is, we have decided that we cannot handle having two dogs in the house now that we have a baby. The question is, which one is the best bet to keep? Is aggression aggression, or is there a difference between Lucy's deadly aggression towards another dog and Mollie's mild passive aggression (if that's what it is) towards humans? Is it too late for Mollie to learn to be a better behaved dog? Is Lucy the one to keep since she minds so well, or is she a ticking time bomb? I need your advice. Sorry for the long e-mail, but I wanted to give you as much background as possible. Thanks in advance for your help.
Sincerely,
ShawnP.S. - FYI, both dogs get along well with the cat. Each of them asserts dominance in their own way sometimes, though. Lucy will chase her out of rooms sometimes (seems to be for fun) and Mollie likes to occasionally hump the cat (which I find very odd, since they are all females). Mollie is 5 years old and Lucy is 2.5 years old.
ANSWER:
I think that you fall into a category of nice people who, because they don’t understand pack behavior, have failed their dogs. Don’t feel bad there are many, many people who do this.
I could probably write a chapter in a book on what has been done wrong and what should be done. I just don’t have the time. I will provide you with some reading material and you can then make up your own mind.
I recommend that start by going to my web site and read the article I wrote on my philosophy of dog training. I think you will get some good ideas there.
I recommend reading the article I wrote on corrections.
The fact is these dogs are not well trained. If they were you would be able to stop them from jumping up on people – you cant do this so this translates into an untrained dog. If these were my dogs I would be using dog crates for both dogs. The older dog has you conned into thinking you should not put her in a crate. If she could talk I would guarantee that she would opt for the crate over being sent to a new home.
Keep these dogs separated – all the time. Its not difficult. We have 5 dog crates in our home – only two dogs get along and those two are out at one time. In your case only one can be out at one time.
Read the article titled Dealing with Dominant Dogs. You will see a lot of your issues in this article.
Read the article I wrote on Preventing Dog Bites in Children.
You may want to read the article I wrote on GROUND WORK BEFORE OBEDIENCE TRAINING. I guarantee this is what I would be doing with both of these dogs – along with working them on a prong collar and taking them both through my Basic Dog Obedience program. (read the description and what people have said about the tape)
Because of the aggression in the younger dog I would follow that training with a remote training collar – probably an Innotek ADV 300 (read about it on my web site. I have a DVD titled E-collar training for pet owners.
Bottom line is even if you find a home for one of these dogs you are going to have to change the way you live with dogs or you will continue to have problems.
I have a saying that I tell people – it goes like this "Everyone has an opinion on how to train a dog – just ask you barber, your mailman and your neighbor” The problem is very few people have the experience to back up their opinions. This results in a lot of bad information being passed out So people like yourself need to figure out who has the experience to warrant listening to.
You have already been exposed to this problem in that the people you got training information did not deal with pack behavior.
So with this said – if you care you can solve your problems. Training is not that time consuming – 3 minutes at one time 3 to 5 times a day is not that time consuming.
Preventing Dog Bites in Children
eBook |
Photo by Jinn Sabarika ~ www.spiralingdreams.com
I have read the dominance article and all of the questions and answers about dog fights on your web site. I found a lot of useful information but I need help on a couple of questions.
My situation is that I am trying to start a small breeding program but I want my dogs to be family pets also because I want them to have happy lives not just stuck in small pens all alone. I have 2 female Smooth Fox Terriers and one male. I also have 2 female Whippets and plan to get a male soon. The first dog I got was a female Fox Terrier. She is 5 years old now. I bred her and kept a female puppy. Then I got a 7-month old female Whippet, and later, a 10-wk. old female Whippet.
The mother Fox Terrier was the alpha dog. When her girl pup was about 7 months old and I was away for the evening, the mother and daughter Terriers attacked the older Whippet and tore big gashes all over her. She had to stay in the hospital for a week. She has recovered now and gets along great with the mother Terrier. But the daughter Terrier will attack the Whippet if she gets a chance and I now keep them separated at all times.
Then, when the younger Whippet became about 7 months old, she got in a fight with the mother Terrier. I broke up the fight with the help of my daughter with no serious injuries but the Whippet now thinks she's the alpha dog. I keep her separated from the mother Terrier during the day when I'm gone but let them in the house together in the evening while I'm home. The Whippet stands over the Terrier and growls. The Terrier growls too and they have gotten in one other smaller fight. The Whippet is very persistent in her domination behavior and does it repeatedly through the evening.
None of the dogs are dominant toward me or anyone else. They all sleep in crates in my room and stay outdoors in large fenced yards during the day-the Whippets in front and Fox Terriers in back. They often run up and down the fence line barking at each other. The Fox Terriers take it very seriously while the Whippets think it's just a fun game.
My questions are these:
1. What can I do to help the dogs settle into their pack roles and stop fighting?
2. Should I scold the Whippet when she shows dominant behavior toward the mother Terrier or will that just make things worse?
3. How can I get the daughter Terrier and the older Whippet back together?
4. Should I make a "no-dog" area between the front and back yards so they can't run along the fence line?
5. I have even wondered about wrapping the dogs' legs and necks, etc. so they wouldn't get hurt and just letting two of them fight until they settle who is boss. Would that ever be an option?
5. Are my dogs happier being free even though they live with the threat of fights and even though they may have to stay outside when others come inside?
I'm realizing that my dream of me and my dogs being one big happy family is not as easy as it seemed. Thank you so much for your help.
Mardel
Ed Frawley's Philosophy on Dog Training
eBook |
Hello ED,
My name is Raechel and I came upon this site today after trying to break up yet another dog fight in the house. After reading all the information on properly breaking up a dog fight I realize I did everything wrong. Which would be why I have a nice size bite on my arm. My question is about the two dogs. I recently got a 5 month old male black lab who for the most part in very gentle besides the puppy energy. My roommate has a 2yr old female Border Collie who is not fully trained. She is a very shy dog and will lay on her back when you walk up to her. neither dog is aggressive by themselves and are fine together everyday. However this is the second fight in a week. The female Border Collie starts it. I was reading through the scenarios on why dogs fight and it said it wasn't common for a male and female to fight much less for the female to start it. The lab is still a puppy (a 35lb puppy) and, after seeing these two fights and pulling her off of him, is not very good at defending himself. I saw that muzzles were recommended for introducing a new dog into the home. Is this always a good idea? Are there any cons to using them? How often should they be used?
Any help would be appreciated
Thanks
Raechel
A picture of Rachel's arm bite that she got trying to break up her dog fight.
That's a quarter on her arm so you see how big this bite was.
Ed,
I wrote this after reading about the Merseyside child killed by a dog recently. What a Christmas tragedy! Maybe you can publish it somewhere on your web page.
Note:
I prefer the described dogfight-procedure to grabbing hind legs because the heads of the dogs remain under control throughout.
By the time you get to the scene, one of the dogs usually already has a firm grip on the other. Pulling them apart by their hind legs worsens the severity of the wound.
The timing of a simultaneous leg-grab is difficult en the odds of being bitten are higher because the teeth of both dogs are snapping freely.
You can also easily end op with two dogs dangling from one set of hind legs, which also worsens the severity of the wound.
Please let me know what you think.
------------------------
What can bystanders do to rescue a child or person being attacked?
If a the dog has a firm grip it will not let go easily and will probably be shaking the victim or trying to drag the victim.
Here's what to do:METHOD 1
If the dog is wearing a collar, grab the collar, pull tight and twist, thus choking the dog. It will let go as soon as he has difficulty breathing. Don't release the choke hold or collar too soon: the dog might attack you next.METHOD 2
If the collar is too broad or stiff or too tight for twist choking (it often is), place your hand from behind over the snout of the dog while holding the collar tightly in the other.
Push the upper lip on both sides firmly over the teeth of the upper jaw: there will be a good-sized gap. The dog will instantly let go when he feels his inner lip pressing against his teeth (it feels like he's biting his own inner lip). The release is instant en almost no force is required because the inner lip is extremely sensitive).
Your fingers will not be crushed: it's protected by the sensitive inner lip ''sandwich."
Jerk your hand away as soon as the dog opens his mouth and stay in control of the collar. If there is no collar use the scruff of the neck.
You can practice "open wide please" with your own dog(s). You will need the trick eventually, for instance to remove a bone caught in the bridge between the upper teeth or to separate your own dogs if two of them should tackle each other.BTW:
Pulling a bone stuck in the bridge between the teeth forward will only wedge it in firmer. Push it towards the throat with your finger.FIGHTING DOGS
Kicking in an effort to separate them must never be tried. Dogs feel little or no pain when in a fighting frenzy and you will in effect be joining the fight -- and they always bite faster than you can kick.
Never try to separate fighting dogs on your own: you WILL be bitten, even if it your own dogs. Two people are needed and action should only be taken after one dog has a firm hold on the other.
One person grabs the underdog firmly by the collar or scruff of the neck. The other person grabs the collar of the other dog and then executes either the collar choke or "open wide" procedure.
Then hold on to both dogs to prevent a new fight starting and release them elsewhere.
Ed's Response:
Thanks for writing but I have to seriously disagree with what your advice. This is very dangerous work and what you say to do makes it far more dangerous. I have trained police service dogs for over 30 years. Trying to grab a big dog by the collar and twist the collar or grabbing a large dog or pit pull in this manner is going to result in a handler attack more times than not.
While your advice is well intentioned it reflects a lack of experience. While it may work on the occasional dog there are more strong dogs that it will not work on.
Hello,
I went to your web site today and found your address. Hopefully you may have advice for our dog. My husband and I usually walk our 3 dogs in the morning. Today he was unable to walk so I took them out. On the way back home I came across a dead gopher. The oldest dog, female Izzie (age 9) was on the leash and she wanted the gopher. I kicked the gopher off the road and Sara (age 7) went towards the gopher. Izzie flipped out and started fighting with Sara. I could not get them to stop fighting. Izzie pulled off her collar and continued fighting. I eventually wrestled her to the ground and tried to calm her down with talk but she got up again and jumped on Sara.
I finally got them apart ....long after I should have. Neither was listening or obeying commands. Both sustained bites on faces, and bodies. I put them into separate yards and have scolded Izzie each time I see her this morning. Now then...What do I do with these dogs?
Sara has always been the least dominant dog and she got the worst of it. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I know this would not have happened if my husband were there.
Thank you for any help you may provide.
Karen
ANSWER:
If this had happened to me I would back up the way these dogs lived with me. Obviously some mistakes were made and I can't tell you what they are from a short email.
These dogs should not be going on walks together or in my opinion they should not even be loose in the house together. One should be crated while the other is out. If they do walk together they should have appropriate muzzles. (NOT CLOTH MUZZLES THEY CAN SUFFOCATE A DOG).
I believe that the DVD I recently finished could really help you. It’s titled DEALING WITH DOMINANT AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS and was a 5 year project.
This DVD is 3 ½ hours long. You can go to the web page and read the outline of what’s included on the video. My DVDs are not meant to be watched one time. The fact is anyone who needs this information needs to watch it several times because every time they watch it they will pick up something new.
There are a lot of training articles and free eBooks on my web site. Read them. You may find others you need more help that just that DVD. I don’t know what your level of obedience training is.
But with this all said, if you choose to ignore this advice I would recommend my free eBook on HOW TO BREAK UP A DOG FIGHT WITHOUT GETTING HURT.
Comment:
Hi Ed:
This is a puncture wound I suffered while trying (stupidly) to break up a fight between my 7-month-old English Bulldog bitch and my 14-month-old English Bulldog bitch. The fighting just started about two weeks prior. Up until that point, they were fine. As of this writing, I am almost two weeks into recovering from the bite. It may not look like much but the puncture wound became infected and has required two rounds of antibiotics, 3 injections of antibiotics and a tetanus shot. This week I see a hand surgeon to operate due to the sheath that covers my tendon being nicked and causing not only LOTS of pain, but tracing problems. To date I am about $500.00 spent in co-pays and medications. I have certainly learned my lesson.
Caroline
San Jose. CA
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Question:
Hi Ed! We have three setters, all spayed senior females: An irish setter named Casey, a red and white named Laci, and a gordon named Bonnie.
Anyways, we read your 'wheelbarrow spin/leash around the loins when they're fighting' tip and I wanted to say that sounds like a really great idea! When Casey and Laci get into a rumble (Usually over Casey's food bowl that was forgotten to be picked up) the scene usually plays out like this: Laci checks Casey's bowl after Laci and Bonnie (They eat out in their separated crates on the porch) are let into the house in the middle of dinner when Casey in usually finished with her food (We all eat at the same time) Bonnie wanders off to lay down/hang out in my parents bedroom.
Casey goes to see what Laci's doing. Laci shows what we call 'lip' (Lips raised to show teeth) Fight breaks out, I yell 'fight!' Laci is usually the dominant member of the three so she's on top. Bonnie stays out of the fight, She's our oldest and has a hip problem so she usually stays where she is.
My dad stands up, I move out of the way of the dogs fronts and most 'dangerous' spot. My mom gets behind me ready to lend a hand. Casey doesn't fight back and lays there waiting for it to be over. I grab Laci's collar, coming in directly above her and pull straight back so she has no front footing to get to Casey. I move her to my side where my mom drags her out onto the porch and leaves her out there, closing the sliding glass door. My dad picks up the dog bowl and moves it up out of the dogs sights. Casey, seeing that danger has passed, gets up. We check to see if there was any blood shed. By then Laci is uninterested in fighting and is let back in and checked for (usually no) damage. She hightails it out of the area because she knows she's in trouble. That's the end of it.Well, we saw your article and are going to have a leash on hand to pull Laci off of Casey next time, instead of using my hand on her collar! Thanks for saving my hand from possible bite wounds!
-Juli
Answer:
I think it might be easier to keep the two offending dogs separated since it appears that the fights break out in a predictable manner.
You know what the triggers are, so I would make sure the environment is controlled from now on and hopefully the fights won’t be an issue.
Knowing how to break up a fight is important, in any case, but managing the dogs properly is better and safer for everyone.
Pack structure and how to live with a dog in your home are the first issues to deal with whenever you have problems with existing dogs. We are taking orders for a new DVD that extensively covers the way Ed and I live with dogs in our home.
Question:
Mr. Frawley,
Thank you for taking the time to read my email. I am seeking your advice for the continued steps in training and/or new tips for my 18 month old neutered male German Shepherd.
I have purchased three of your videos: Establishing Pack Structure, Basic Dog Obedience, and Dealing with Dominant & Aggressive Dogs. Love them. We are guided by dog behaviorist/trainer Dr. Carmen Childs, VA, to incorporate these training techniques.
I'll try to describe this as briefly as possible. We purchased our puppy,Tiki, from a reputable breeder, who primarily breeds for good temperament. Carmen knows the lines and was most impressed with another of her dogs that was in her class. The breeder suggested waiting for neuter until 12-18 months for physical development, etc., Carmen very much against this. We made the best decision possible at the time and chose to wait and watch his behavior. He was neutered at 12 months with strong encouragement by Carmen, as Tiki was not able to be in obedience class, esp with other dominant males, he reacted to their aggression, hair up, staring, unable to focus on training, growling. So, we left group class and initiated your pack structure training. Huge improvement in about 2 months.
Now, we have done lots with him, ie crate lock down and establishing pack structure as guided by your videos, and one-to-one classes with Carmen. We have no people aggression, and he gets along very well with our second dog. Our walks in the neighborhood are the biggest challenge. Tiki become zoned in on other dogs, hair up, and whines, looses control somewhat. He does not lunges or growl, but I do keep him at a distance, and attempt refocus by turning and walking in other direction and making him look at me.
Individual training with Carmen now consists of walking on leash, and then she brings in one of her stable dogs, to slowly introduce my dog to a positive, non threatening experience.
My question/concern is, when or how will I be able to get Tiki back in a class for further obedience training, hopefully, get his CGC, and move on to hopefully tracking training with him. He's extremely intelligent, and great pet as well. What has been your experience with this situation, given the very limited amount of information I provided.
Thank you for your time,
Deborah
Answer:
Deborah,
I don’t agree with the approach you are taking with this dog. You may want to re-think your plan.
It is obvious that other dogs upset this dog. As a pack leader it’s your job to protect your pack members from things that upset them. It’s also your job to establish your pack leader rules. (I.E. no unwarranted dog aggression).
So how do you go about this?
1-Read my eBook on WHO PETS MY DOG – it’s on my web site. The concepts in this article also apply to dogs. Your dog need to understand that you are not going to allow other dogs near it. Over time he needs to know that you will not push non-pack member dogs on him because you step in front and block the encounter. To the extent of driving a stray dog away.
Unfortunately because of the things that have been done you may be past the point where the dog is able to appreciate this concept.2-The dog aggression like this is best solves with a remote collar and HIGH LEVEL stimulation. The stimulation is applied the instant the dog sees another dog - not when it works itself up to tizzy. That’s often too late. The very instant he looks at the dog you stimulate him and you don’t do it with low level.
With time and experience you will find you can back off the level you start with.
If you were to make the mistake and start low and work to high level you run the risk of teaching a dog to fight through the stimulation.
My DVD Remote Collar Training For the Pet Owner teaches people who to do normal off leash training with remote collars. It teaches low level stimulation. You can still use this information for your normal work. I us a DOGTRA 1700ncp on my 18 month old GSD3-Redirecting the dog to you, turning and walking away are things that do work with some dogs. But there are also many dogs that these techniques are simply not going to change anything. Your dog falls into this category.
I cannot tell you if this dog will every be able to pass a CGC test. I don’t know the dog well enough. It will depend on your consistency and the effectiveness of your training.
By the way – I assume you know you were mislead by the breeder on neutering. It should have been done at a younger age. But that’s water over the dam now.
Question:
Your advice sounds good but what happens when the attacking dog (with some pit in him) just won't let go....you can drag them apart and take the other dogs ear with you. PLus, in the heat of the fight, like the one I saw yesterday, the owners are most likely to panic and not work as a team. In this case, what do you suggest?
Answer:
You then call the police – or you shoot the pit
No one said this was easy or it worked in every circumstance.
Testimonial:
Dear Ed,
You have my sincere admiration and respect. Your no nonsense, common sense approach to dog training is refreshing and effective.
I just finished reading your article on breaking up dog fights without getting hurt and was humbled by your method of picking up each dogs hind legs. I couldn't believe I hadn't thought of trying that! After breaking up more fights over the past 40 years than I can count, I sincerely thought I had learned the most effective and safest way to do this. Most were between my own dogs and each time I learned another way of what NOT to do. After reading the emails you've received and seeing the photos I realize that I've been extremely lucky also. The 2 times I've received bites were in situations where I was alone and didn't keep my cool. My only goal at the time was to save the weaker dog from being seriously injured by the stronger one which put me in the wrong place, at the wrong time, without concern for my own safety. I'm fortunate to have learned the importance of being the pack leader early on but in these particular situations my emotions got the better of me. The anger and sheer outrage that came over me the time two of my younger dogs, literally, "tag-teamed" the older one, caused me to position myself over him and punch each one in the face when they made a grab for him. Unfortunately, the old boy wasn't totally defenseless and decided to snap at the same time I threw a punch and caught my hand instead of his attackers face. The other time my 3 yr old female rottie, (who was always in her own separate yard) managed to get into my 10 yr old female labs yard and ripped her head open down to the skull. Getting in the middle of that fight got me a deep puncture wound to my shin with enough psi's to leave a permanent dent in it, not to mention the $1300 dent in my wallet for the vet bill.
Most of the time though, there have been friends present that were capable of following my lead when I told them to take hold of a tail on my count of three and then pull steadily backwards. Much like your leg-lifting method but not nearly as safe, (or as effective when one dog is a rottie, sans tail!). If another situation ever presents itself, I will work smarter, not harder and use one of your methods.
Thanks so much for sharing your wisdom and reminding me that I am not too old to learn some new tricks!
Best Regards,
Melissa
Comment:
That's the best picture I got of it. I saw the fight happening, and went to grab the attacking dog around the neck like an idiot. Instead, I just put the elbow section of my arm into the dog's mouth. I got two punctures (with a lot of bruising around them), and few cuts from her fangs. The marks down toward my wrist are scratches.
Dog Fight:
Hi Ed,
Since reading your article on how to break up a dog fight, I’ve just so happened to have to break up 2 dog fights involving unneutered male pit bulls attacking other dogs. The first time it was my own dog and yesterday I just happened to be in the right place at the right time as a pit bull (possibly the same dog) was mauling the thigh of a dog on a leash. The leashed dog’s owner was screaming, the pit bulls owners, 2 boys who had been trying to catch it, were hitting it with a belt, and another neighbor was just about to try and pry the dogs mouth off the other dog. I ran up and was able to end the mauling very quickly.
Thanks again!
-Sylvia
P.S. love your training videos too – my Rottweiler, Maisie, is the most awesome, fun, and obedient dog ever, and this is a dog I wasn't sure if I could handle at first - so many thanks for that too!
Dog Bite:
I've been lurking and saw that you want photos of injuries as a result of breaking up a dogfight. We took in a 6-7 year old Great Dane that had been running the streets. We already had 3 other Danes. One day Cass (the new girl) decided she didn't like Annie, our 2 year old blind Dane. This picture was taken right after the fight. I ended up in the hospital for 3 days on IV antibiotics. We still have her and that is how I found your website, looking for a 'humane' muzzle.
~Patty
Question:
Hi, I ran across your web site and I had some questions for you if it is okay. We have a momma dog, a daddy and two babies - a boy a year and a half and a girl a year and a Chihuahua. The daddy and son got into a BIG fight today and I was here alone. My husband hurried home but it takes him twenty minutes to get here from work. I didn't know what to do, so I let them fight it out. I thought they were going to kill each other but I hit them with a big stick and the next thing that I knew, they were done. I might want to say they are pit bull Rottweiler mixes. We are going to get them neutered on Monday should I still use muscles to keep them from fighting in the future. This had never happened like this. They have only had one other fight over a stick. I love my dogs and they are my children. I just don't want to worry about them fighting when I am not here what should I do? Thanks for your help.
Nikki
Answer:
This is 100% your fault. This happened because of the way you have chosen to live with these dogs.
Dogs are not humans and people who treat dogs like humans have problems like this.
I will 100% guarantee you that neutering these dogs to eliminate dog fights is a complete waste of money and effort. It’s not going to happen. Neutering a dog after its 8 or 9 months old does nothing for aggression.
If you want to fix this problem get dog crates and keep these dogs in dog crates or individual dog kennels. Keep them separated when you’re gone.
You need to learn something about pack structure and dominant dogs.
If you care to do that you can get the information you need from the following DVDs:
Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog
Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs
Basic Dog Obedience
Remote Collar Training for the Pet OwnerIf you want some good advice, take the money you would have wasted on neutering and spend it on these DVDs and dog crates.
Kind Regards,
Ed Frawley
Dog Bite:
This happened while trying to break up a fight between family dogs. My mother-in-law and I both got bit by her dog. I was trying to grab my puppy which is not a small dog and not timid and pull her by her collar. I got pulled down by the two dogs and fell between them. My shoulder got bit and my right hand. I now have to go for surgery to correct the thumb nail, that may never grow back correctly, and the bone broke also.
Mandy
Dog Bite:
I recently rescued a pit bull mix. She's about 1 year old. Yesterday my 3 year-old male beagle walked by her and growled and the pit bull attacked. They've gotten into quite a few scuffles before and I've easily separated them but this time was much different. They fought for a good five minutes. The pit bull is very strong and was picking my beagle up by the neck and swinging him around. I thought for sure he was dead because of the amount of blood. I kept trying to pull the pit off of him but her jaw was locked. At one point I gave up and started screaming and crying because I was horrified. My brother heard this and ran downstairs. He pulled the beagle and I pulled the pit bull by the legs and we got the separated. However, the beagle who was clearly losing ran back at her and started the fight again. I pushed him away with my arm and he latched on and started shaking it. When he realized it was me, he ran away and I put the pit outside. She had very minor cuts and gashes but my beagle, Toby was soaked in blood. I've included a picture of his neck. My brother called 911 and the paramedics were there very fast. My arm was gushing with blood and my finger was black/blue and swollen. We also had to rush Toby to the animal emergency room. It was an awful day.
Anyway, I wish I had known your techniques before I tried to intervene like that. I panicked and I didn't know what else to do. The bite was worth it because I don't think my beagle would have made it through if I hadn't tried to stop it. However, next time I'll definitely know better. We've given the pit to someone else. And Toby is quarantined by animal control for ten days.
Sincerely,
Marissa
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Ed’s Answer:
Thank you so much for taking the time to send this.
I will post it to our web site with the hopes it will help others learn how dangerous breaking up a dog fight can be.
Best of luck for your beagle.
Kind Regards,
Ed Frawley
Question:
Mr. Frawley:
I have two male weimaraners one is 7 years old and the other one is 14 months old. Recently someone gave me the 14 months old at 8 months. The two dogs got along ok but the older dog is jealous or is the dominant dog because he was here first and this is his home. Recently I had the older dog neutered and he has changed some but not a lot. The day before I was to have the 14 month neutered they had a big dog fight and my older dog broke a side of his jaw and some minor cuts, the younger dog had a few cuts. I had surgery on my older dog jaw and I have keep them apart for 3 weeks until I could get a muzzle for each of them. I ordered two Muzzles from your Company last week and was not going to breed the dogs and also want to keep them both because I love them dearly.
I spoke with a trainer that will help me some in 35 days after he has some surgery, he said to get the Muzzles and I have 2 shock collars.
Can you tell me how long I would have to train these dogs with the Muzzles? I am looking at buying your Dominant Dog Collar and Video Dealing with Dominant & Aggressive Dogs.
This is a new experience for me because I have never had two male Weimaraners at one time. I have worried about what to do . The younger dog is playful and the older dog takes it serious.
Will these dogs recognize what is going on with the muzzles? What happens once I take the Muzzle off? Will I know when to take the Muzzle off of them to be around each other? I just have some unsure questions and you as a trainer and using you products thought you could give me some dog advice.
Thanks,
Mary
Answer:
Mary,
This situation is a mess. It’s also a fight waiting to happen (AGAIN).
Your Vet should have told you that neutering a dog older than 9 months seldom changes the dogs aggression. This reflects a Vet who lacks experience or a Vet who is more interested in your wallet than your needs.
Having the dogs wear a muzzle does not solve the problem. It only stops the dog from biting one another. They can still go at one another with muzzles on. Just so you are aware, a police service dog in a muzzle can break a humans ribs.
I also don’t recommend trying to use a remote collar on two of your own dogs to try and eliminate aggression. If you over stimulate one of these dogs with the collar (especially a dog that has not been conditioned to training with a collar) the dog will think the stimulation came from the other dog and this will trigger a fight – not eliminate one.
If you want to keep these dog, get two dog crates and use them. Only one dog should be out at a time. Once dogs fight the way these dog have fought it is very unlikely that you will ever condition these dogs to be loose together.
With this said these dogs do need training and you should learn more about what you are dealing with. Here are the DVDs I would recommend:
Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs
Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog
Basic Dog Obedience
Remote Collar Training for the Pet OwnerI would recommend that you study these DVDs – the information in these DVDs will tell you if you need help from a professional. It will also teach you enough to know if the person you are talking to is qualified to offer sound advice. The problem dog owners like you face is that anyone can call themselves a professional dog trainer when in fact the vast majority of so called pros lack experience and are unqualified to deal with aggression problems – and you most defiantly have a problem.
You actually have a very dangerous situation.
You may want to read the article I wrote on How To Break Up a Dog Fight Without Getting Hurt. But even armed with this information, breaking up a dog fight is a dangerous thing for novice trainers.Kind Regards,
Ed
Dog Bite:
I have a attached a photo of my left hand, bitten as I tried to separate my two boxers from fighting. I lost my pinkie fingernail and the bone was fractured. Could have been a lot worse so I guess I was lucky. Feel free to contact me for any info.
I’ll give you a little history on my clan. I was home alone on Monday evening with all 3 of my boxers, Bella 3yr old female, Bishop 2 1/2 yr old male and Brinks, their son who is now 13 months is already the largest of the 3 dogs weighing in at 68 lbs. I usually have no trouble with them but will admit they totally listen to my husband more than me. Bishop is a small boxer at only 42 lbs and was trained by a local trainer in protection by Dogs RRR Us. When I came home from work I directly went into the kitchen and put my purse etc away. I greeted Bella and Bish and at this point Bish was already carrying my shoe from the front hall. He does not chew them up but carries them around doing the boxer “kidney bean wiggle” for awhile. I proceeded to our “dog room” where I crate Brinks during the day. I let him out and he followed me down the hallway. Right away he went up and smelled Bish with my shoe. I don’t know which one of them actually started to growl first but that’s when the fight started. They ended up in the kitchen still fighting and at which point the was blood everywhere. Brinks had Bish by the inside of his mouth and I thought I needed to do something. I started to drag brinks by his back legs closer to the door to the backyard and figured I could call Bish off. At this point Brinks did loosen his bite but then Bishop lunged at him and that’s when I got bit because my hands were still too close to Brinks. I wasn’t expecting Bishop not to listen but looking back on it should have been able to tell that they were both is such a drive that I shouldn’t have tried what I did. This happened on Monday and we have kept both dogs separated. When Bishop goes by the baby gates he looks like he wants to attack Brinkley.
I’m not sure if you time to answer a lot of personal e-mails but I am at a loss of what to do now. My husband had suggested we could find a home for Brinks but I still haven’t decided. We have been feeding them apart for months and are only given bones to chew on when they are separated. Brinkley became protective of his toys pretty young and had gone after Bishop before so I was aware this might happen and feel at fault. I can take his toys, bones etc away from him with no problem and they are all very loving dogs but don’t know what the next step is. There is no children in the home yet but I do have small nieces who come by and think for now both dogs will have to be muzzled. Look forward to hearing back from you.
Thank you for your time,
Lauren
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Ed's Response:
Thank you so much for sharing this. I hope photos like this will help convince people how dangerous dog fights can be
Kind Regards,
Ed
Dog Bite:
Guess I should've read your page first!
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Ed's Response:
Thanks for sending the dog bite photos. Can you tell me the details of what happen. Maybe the story will help others.
Kind Regards,
Ed
More:
Hi, Ed.
The new pictures are my wife's hand, resulting from the same incident. These pictures are 10 days old and don't look as bad as they really were. The picture of the top of the hand is the healing of a fingernail that was entirely torn off. The other one isn't very descriptive but, portrays the swelling (less now) from the crushed bone in the tip of the finger. Due to that bone, the injury bled for nearly 36 hours. I tried to send X-rays but they didn't work too well.
Our incident revolves around 2 adult female dogs, a weimaraner (107 lbs) and a husky mix (48 lbs). They are the youngest and oldest, respectively, of 4 and the shortest and longest time with us, respectively. They have issues.
The older dog has always had problems with strange dogs and, because she lives in a fenced yard, snaps at our other dogs, by proxy. The 2 others blow it off and walk away. We got the weimie a year ago and, while they get along for the most part, the weimie thinks the husky is seriously trying to fight.
We've had 1 fight over a dog coming up to the fence. The fight which caused the pictured injuries happened when the weimie approached the husky's bowl. She likes to eat outside in her kennel and she doesn't like to be bothered. We can't let them kill each other so we tried to break it up. It took 15 minutes or more to break them up and resulted in 2 hours in emergency.
Thanks for your interest and web page. Hope this helps someone else to not do the same thing. It sure helped us to see your article.
Scott
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Question:
I'll try to make a long story short. Found your site while looking for info on why my 8 year old shepherd has started eating my clothes, sheets blankets etc. Found no answer but thought you could point me to an answer on one other problem. I have 6 shepherds. 5 female and 1 male.
Great dogs, good temperaments, very kissy and cuddly, they love when company comes over etc. My husband is an over the road trucker and I feel safe here alone. If some one broke in my dogs would let them in no problem. BUT don't raise a hand to hurt me or my Samantha would I think hurt you seriously, I think she would die for me but guess that's not the real problem. The real problem is this. I have a fenced in area off the back kitchen door. I don't let my dogs run loose although everyone else in the neighborhood does. When I open the door to let them out to go to the bathroom in the morning I have noticed that they have been gradually getting worse jumping and barking on top of each other especially the 2 younger girls ( 4 year old sisters) jumping on the male. It has steadily become worse to the point I dread letting them out. I have over come a lot of obstacles with them including when I adopted #6 and there were a lot of fights I broke up especially with Samantha and #6 Lexy. I wish I had read your site then! But I got it worked out and they now sleep together. Seven or eight so called dog trainers told me I would have to re-home Lexy but I thought that info was wrong as My dogs could not dictate the number of dogs I have.
Anyway that was 3 yrs ago and it has been good. I am the stricter one with the dogs then my husband and I have no qualms throwing my dogs on the floor if they are on the couch with me and they growl if another dog walks over to me, and don't get me wrong I love my dogs but with that many in one house by myself I have to nip it in the bud or you'll be posting my bite photos. Anyway I feel the dogs are getting out of control when I let them out and I need to stop it now. By the way, as soon as I close the door and they can't see me, the jumping on each other and the barking stops so I think that is a clue. Thanks for any help. Sorry this is so long. Patti
Answer:
These problems are 100% a pack structure/rank problem. There is no question about this. These dogs are telling you something in what is happening in your pack and you need to listen to it and make changes. If you don’t you could very easily have a dead dog or dogs.
When you have a dog pack like this (and it is a dog pack) the pack issues are magnified. When dog fights break out they can be very very serious because they can turn from two dogs fighting into 3 or 4 dogs all fighting the lowest ranking dog and that dog gets killed. I have a folder full of emails from people who have had this happen.
In my opinion you need a dog crate for every dog. You need to run these dogs through a pack structure program (Establishing Pack Structure with the Family Dog) Part of this work will be controlling who goes outside and when. They should never be allowed to go out at the same time like this.
I have had GSDs my entire life (I am 61) , bread them for over 33 years. I would never try and do what you’re doing. It simply is not worth the risk.
Kind Regards,
Ed Frawley
Comment:
Hi Mr. Frawley,
I just wanted to write you a quick note of appreciation for your article on how to break up a dog fight. I had to pick up the chow by the tail and throw him over the fence into the neighbor's yard. I have a 9 year old chow mix who got into a fight with my 10 year old Mastiff/Shepherd mix, and I was able to use your tip to great satisfaction. These dogs had never fought before but became aggressive to each other after a neighbor's child threw only one dog biscuit into their yard. They have now been reintroduced to each other after 6 weeks apart and are doing well. The fight resulted in an arterial bleed on the mastiff. My husband pointed out that neither must have been "really fighting" or I would not have been able to pick up the chow and pull him out of the mastiff's jaws. (But keep in mind my husband did not try to do anything to stop the fight, it was me in the midst of it all with the dogs, which I realize was not all that smart).
Incidentally, I found the chow mix on the highway when he was about 9 months old, and he is everything you described about chows in your chows article. He is also the lucky dog to be living with me, who let him know who was in charge straight away. My dad was a MP who worked with shepherd in the Army during the Vietnam era, and he taught me a lot about dogs when I was a kid.
Two male aggressive breeds and one female handler doing fine here in Savannah, GA! So far so good.
Sincerely,
Renee
Source: http://www.blackpoolgazette.co.uk/blackpoolnews/Dog-owner-speaks-following-alsatian.5231696.jp
Question:
Hi,
I appreciate your website and articles. I of course found your site after the fact as I searched for information on how to prevent future dog fights. Here is my story; I volunteer at a local Humane Society and have for 3 years now. In the three years I had only seen and gotten involved in one dog fight between two dogs. The fight was very minor and I was able to break it up quickly without injury to the dogs or myself. I have also experienced a dog bite but it also thankfully wasnt too bad and was only because the dog had aggression issues. Needless to say I had been very fortunate with my days as a volunteer and did not have the knowledge of how to handle a serious dog fight if it arose...and it did. On Easter Sunday of this year I picked up an extra shift at the shelter because the other person could not make it. When I arrived I went through my usual duties which included letting all of the dogs out (we only had 6 at the time), cleaning their runs, filling food and water, as well as letting the cats out of their crates to play in their cat room. After my duties I always go outside to play with the dogs and give them affection. It was a beautiful morning! I went outside, ran down to the yard ( when you walk outside we have stairs that go down to a fenced in yard, there are no crates just a big fenced in lot with a 'door' at the end of the stairs that separates the stairs and yard.) And started playing with the dogs as usual. I run with them, throw balls, ect. I had just thrown a ball and was admiring the dogs as they went after it when one of our collie mixes, a quieter, smaller dog jumped up on me for some lovin, so I started to pet him on his head. At the same time our fat terrier mix jumped up in the same manner for some attention (yes I know letting them get up on me is my first mistake!) as I petted both of them something inside the terriers head set him off and he growled and snapped at the other dog. The other dog returned the growl and instantly they started viciously attacking each ot her! I was horrified, scared, and shocked. As the other dogs heard the commotion they came running over and two more jumped in, the three started attacking the smaller dog that originally jumped on me for affection. I knew not to yell at them but I couldn't think of what to do to stop them.I tried to breath deep to keep my heart steady so that they wouldnt feed off my energy, I clapped my hand, attempted to grab the terrier ( who seemed to be tearing the other guy apart), nothing worked. I ran up the stairs to go inside and find something to use to get between them, a broom was the first thing I saw. As I ran back down to the yard my stomach was in my throat and I wanted to scream and cry(but I didnt!), why on earth were they doing this, and why wont they stop is all I could think. By the time I got into the yard, two of the dogs( the terrier mix, male. and a hound shepard mix, female) had the collie mix pinned by the throat to the ground, his fur was covered in blood. I honestly thought they were going to kill him and I couldnt bear to have that so I stuck the broom in between them all and began using it to 'push' the two aggressors back. This worked for a second, long enough to create space between the dogs. It was happening so fast I didnt know what to do so I grabbed the terrier while still using the broom as a separator well that was not going to happen and he continued trying to get at the other dog ( the hound mix at this time is staying still waiting for the terrier to make a move) when I realized I couldnt hold him back anymore and the smaller dog wasnt able to run away I quickly let go of the terrier and simultaneously grabbed the collie mix and lifted him as high as I could and began to run toward the stairs. The other two dogs jumped, ran, and tried to bite at the dog I was carrying. They managed to knock me down and I dropped the poor dog. As they were tearing into him they also managed to bite my leg, I knew I had been bit but my adrenalin was pumping and I was determined to get this poor guy out of there alive so as I was getting up off the ground I swooped him back into my arms, I still had the broom and began trying to use it again to get between them, I managed enough space to shut the door to the fence that separated the stairs and the yard. now how bad is this guy injured is what I thought. I got him inside, called the shelter director, looked for all of his wounds, tried to clean him up best I could, then sat on the floor wishing I had a shot of vodka!! I let the other dogs in and put them all in there crates, the terrier was covered in blood and his ear was split down the middle. I also felt my own leg swelling and dripping with blood. What a day!It felt like it went on for hours but the whole thing start to finish was about 10 minutes. I dont understand what triggered it, and I wish I had been better equipped with how to deal with it. All the dogs are doing okay now, and as bad as I thought the terrier was going to kill this sweet collie mix, he actually got the worst injuries in the end. Thankfully they are doing fine, it seemed like it was going to be so much worse. The director of the shelter came out and got the dogs stitched and checked. The two main ones involved went to foster homes, the other two that had been involved were perfectly fine. My leg is alright now, a couple of nice scars. I didn't even intend to give the full story, I apologize for such a long email!
My questions to you are these, when there is one of you and 3 or more dogs involved in the fight, then how do you break it up? Also I am a big animal lover, I still volunteer at the same shelter, but honestly I have a fear that I've never had before. I get very tense and scared when a dog growls at another or if I sense any type of jealousy or aggression toward each other. How do I get over this?? I do not want them to sense my anxiety therefore making them nervous and possibly causing another fight. I love the dogs and I do not want to have any type of fear toward them but after seeing such intense aggression and fighting, I do.
Thank you sincerely for your insight,
Tiffani
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Answer:
The answer for me is simple. I would not put myself in a position for this to happen again. I don’t put multiple dogs that I don’t know together, ever. It’s an accident waiting to happen as you found out. I realize that some places operate this way and put dogs out in groups together but in a shelter situation where the dogs have little to no training or relationship with me as a leader I wouldn’t do it ESPECIALLY as an unpaid volunteer.
We have a section on the website about how to break up a dog fight, but it would be very difficult to do with more than 2 dogs. It’s actually difficult to do with only 2.
Your fear is something that is giving you feedback to stay out of a dangerous situation. I wouldn’t shut out your fear, I would pay attention to it and educate yourself on pack structure and dynamics. The best advice I can give is to give the dogs one on one attention with you, and nix the idea of letting groups of dogs out together when you are alone. I’d also recommend you do some studying of pack behavior and body language and learn the subtle signs dogs display before things escalate. The fact that one of the shelter dogs jumped up on you for attention (a dominant behavior) and you rewarded that by petting shows me that you need more education. You then let the second dog jump up and YOU became a resource for the dogs to fight over. If you understood a bit more about dog psychology, behavior and body language you may have avoided the whole scenario by forbidding the first dog to jump up on you in the beginning. Either way, I’m not trying to be overly critical because I know you are trying to help these dogs out and I commend that.
We have a number of books on our website about canine body language.
You may also be interested in these videos.
Pack Structure for the Family Pet
I believe that this DVD could really help you. It’s titled DEALING WITH DOMINANT AND AGGRESSIVE DOGS and was a 5 year project.
Your Humane Society should purchase these training materials for their employees and volunteers, in my opinion.
Cindy
Dog Bite:
Hello there,
I am writing for the second time. I sent you a picture already of what happened to my left arm when I tried to stop my female pit by wrapping my arm around her neck/shoulder area before the fight started. That time I only had two punctures and bruises. I see you put the picture up on your second page. After reading your article, I didn't know if I had the strength to stop a dog fight, but I swore to myself I was going to use your method should I ever have the need. Unfortunately, I never really received the chance.
It was New Year's Day (2009) and about 5 of us (family, friends) were signing karaoke. China (6 year old female pit) was sitting next to me on the couch... which, after reading a lot of articles and books, I know now is not good when you have a dog with a dominant personality. Well, she is very skittish too and someone knocked over something in the hallway outside of the room. Sadly, Pudge (12 year old male pit/lab mix) came into the room to investigate and came right up to China. She immediately took after his face and got a hold of his ear area. There was nothing I could do. I was prone and the two dogs were practically in my lap. The men in the room absolutely freaked (having no experience for this situation) and made it so much worse. They started yelling and tried to pull the two dogs apart by grabbing their middles. Well, they succeeded but China was in such a frenzy that her head whipped around and -- bam! There was my (left, again!) arm in her mouth.
She crunched down and I remember just staring down at her and my arm in disbelief. I didn't even yell or anything -- just stared down at her. My husband grabbed her once he realized what was going on and she jerked her head like she was going to start thrashing. I screamed out, "No! Leave her alone." He did and then China realized she had a hold of me and not the other dog. She instantly let go upon the realization and took off in a run to another room.
The end result: 5 puncture wounds, one very large deep gash, a minor gash and cuts, $3000 in medical bills, 2 1/2 month healing time and I have no feeling in the top of my thumb to this day, but plenty of nasty scars.
I was told that if one puncture wound was deeper or more to the right side of my arm, I would've had to have surgery to repair the tendon because at first I couldn't use my thumb at all and I couldn't turn my arm over.
I am writing this because I think it's important for people to know that in the right situation (like two dogs fighting in front of you on a couch), you can get bit no matter your knowledge. I also want people to know that their dog is not the same during or seconds after a fight. China is not aggressive toward people at all. She is only dog aggressive and bit me because she was so hyped up. Thirdly, it's important for a person to know their dog. In my case, China is skittish and the reduction of loud noises and commotion has done wonders, but in order to achieve that, I had to give her away to a friend who knows her history very well. My friend is currently working with a vet to desensitize China. So my very last point is... Sometimes, you and the animal are not meant to be. You can't have your dogs keep fighting, and especially not when you have other dogs that are far too old or simply unable to defend themselves properly.
I am really, really hoping that I will never have to send you another email. Thank you for your wonderful site and advice. When I decide it's time for my family to bring another dog into our lives, I know the first place I am going to be getting information from is your site since you have such wonderful articles.
--- Amy
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Ed's Response:
Thanks much for this email – I agree it will help others realize how seriously it is.
You may want to read the article I wrote on how to break up a dog fight without getting hurt. It is also in the form of a free eBook on my web site.I would recommend the following DVDs to stop this from happing again:
Preparing Your Dog for the Helper
Establishing Pack Structure with the Family DogI am afraid if you don’t make some changes your going to have more fights.
Regards,
Ed Frawley
Thanks:
Hi Cindy & Ed,
I read your newsletters frequently, and today noticed the pictures of the dog bite. I want to thank you for the information you provide about breaking up dog fights. I have a male black lab who has a very sweet temperament. When he was about a year old, we were visiting my in-laws, who owned his father, who was a wonderful older black lab, very sweet dog, who had severe arthritis and limited mobility. The two males (both intact) got along extremely well, until one day I went to feed them. I was not thinking and went to feed them both at the same time. I don't know which dog started it, but the two went after each others' necks. It happened so quickly, but I had read your article about breaking up a dog fight so I grabbed my dog's back legs and dragged him off of his stationary father before any damage was caused (to me or either dog). Thank goodness I had read your article, thank you. After that, I have kept my own pack to ourselves during feeding time. Thank you for all the information you provide, it has been very helpful for our family. Even my husband, who was once a skeptic of the importance of pack structure, has seen the wonderful benefits of sticking to your program. We have a very well-behaved member of the family now, who could have been a terror had we not made our family a pack, with the dog at the bottom!
Thank you!
Meghan
Dog Fight:
Pictures from my dog bites from my Jack Russell while separating her from attacking my Pitbull 2 times.
Jamie
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