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#169090 - 12/17/07 10:27 AM
Puppy aggressive behavior
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Anne Schloesing
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 3
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I would like for other members to give me their opinions and much valued experience with this matter. I need to make a decision very quickly, and would appreciate any input to help me make this decision.
A couple weeks ago, I was given a puppy, 4 weeks old mix of Golden retriever and Great Pyrenees. The puppy is so adorable, and my 7 year old daughter fell in love with him quickly. Right away, I noticed that in certain circumstances he had aggressive reactions. For example, several times when I tried to pick him up and remove him from things I did not want to let him continue, (cat food, chewing inappropriate things, or trying to pick him up from a exiting playing session with the kids at the park or barking at and chasing the cat), he became very angry and growled and tried to bite at anything he could reach. Even at this young age, he is a very big dog, and I am sure that if he had been able to get his teeth on me, it could have inflicted damage. I thought that this was a problem, and decided that until I got him his vaccinations, and was able to take him to puppy school, I was going to do my best to work on the behavior. Several people who had seen the puppy behavior were a bit concerned that he needed to be corrected right away, and I agreed, so I spent a week working hard to catch him every time he had one of these reactions. Despite my efforts, he only got worse. Even in play, he is almost impossible to control, he is constantly chewing on things, biting legs and, now he corners my daughter and his play biting is very aggressive, she cannot even sit on the couch without him trying to get at her and chew on her, and mount her leg. When I try to get him to let go, it is very hard to get him to open his mouth, even when using a loud voice, a tap on the nose, pulling on his collar, and giving him a shake. I have bought a good selection of chew toys to give to him as substitution, but even then he usually goes back for your shoes, legs, whatever he had his mind made up on. He is extremely stubborn, and very defiant, and does not respond well to discipline. I have bought some nice soup bones for him to chew, so that he would not be tempted to chew on other things. That is when things got scary. One night I gave him a bone in the downstairs bathroom. I was upstairs folding laundry when he came up and laid down on the floor to chew the bone. At some point I reach down to pick up a sock that had fallen right next to him, he when crazy and growled and snapped at me. I was able to pick him up by the collar and put him outside for a while. Later that evening, he came back to my room with the bone and was chewing it peacefully while I was in the bathroom getting ready for the night. When I walked back into the room, he just went completely crazy, barking loudly, growling, snarling, and biting at the air. I could not get past him, and I was too intimidated to go and grab his collar.
I had to wait until he calmed down and walked away from the bone to go back into the room. At this point I am very concerned about this behavior, and wonder if I should even try to keep him. I have the feeling that he could be dangerous, and wonder if that behavior can even be changed. I have had dogs (German Sheppard) when I grew up, and I am used to big powerful dogs, but have never encountered that situation. I very much wanted this puppy to work out for us, but I do not want any accident with my child or me. Can some one share their opinions on the matter? Maybe this behavior falls in the range of normal and can be worked with, or is this something that is too difficult to correct and I am taking too much of a risk?
Thanks for the help.
Anne
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#169094 - 12/17/07 10:45 AM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: Al Curbow]
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Carol Boche
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 4473
Loc: South Dakota, USA
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One would hope it is not 4 weeks old. What were the circumstances on why you were given a pup so young?
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#169096 - 12/17/07 10:54 AM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: Carol Boche]
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Anne Schloesing
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 3
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The puppy was part of a litter that was unintended, from what I understand, the owner was breeding pure Great pyrenees, but this was a golden retriever mix, so he wanted to get rid of that batch, he was going to have them put to sleep, but they were rescued by a neighboor, who in turn gave the puppy to a friend of mine, who could not take care of it, so I ended up with it.
Also, I am just guessing about the age, this is what I have been told. I would think he is closer to 3 months old. I just need to know if this behavior is correctable?
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#169105 - 12/17/07 11:17 AM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: Sandy Moore]
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Carol Boche
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 10/30/05
Posts: 4473
Loc: South Dakota, USA
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Anne,
Please know that we will help you in whatever ways we can and that we are not trying to make you feel bad at all. 
We just are firm in our beliefs and since the pup was basically a rescue, we realize this is not something that you may have been ready for.
Have you tried redirection with another toy or food to get the pup to let go of whatever you do not want him to have?
And are you crate training him? Crate training will help you a lot as well as researching this site and learning about puppies. This site is packed full of info.
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#169114 - 12/17/07 11:44 AM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: Anne Schloesing]
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David Eagle
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 08/17/07
Posts: 551
Loc: La Habra, California
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For example, several times when I tried to pick him up and remove him from things I did not want to let him continue, (cat food, chewing inappropriate things, or trying to pick him up from a exiting playing session with the kids at the park or barking at and chasing the cat), he became very angry and growled and tried to bite at anything he could reach.
You are attributing human emotions to a dog. It is extremely important that you train yourself not to do this.
It is much more likely that he was in high drive (very stimulated) and reacted to additional stimulus (being picked up) by thrashing around. There's no emotion involved in this, he just needed time to calm down before being handled.
Even at this young age, he is a very big dog, and I am sure that if he had been able to get his teeth on me, it could have inflicted damage. I thought that this was a problem, and decided that until I got him his vaccinations, and was able to take him to puppy school, I was going to do my best to work on the behavior. Several people who had seen the puppy behavior were a bit concerned that he needed to be corrected right away, and I agreed, so I spent a week working hard to catch him every time he had one of these reactions. Despite my efforts, he only got worse.
1. How much does he weigh? Precision is not needed. More than 15 pounds? Less than 10?
2. In what way are you correcting this behavior? How quickly?
Even in play, he is almost impossible to control, he is constantly chewing on things, biting legs and, now he corners my daughter and his play biting is very aggressive, she cannot even sit on the couch without him trying to get at her and chew on her, and mount her leg. When I try to get him to let go, it is very hard to get him to open his mouth, even when using a loud voice, a tap on the nose, pulling on his collar, and giving him a shake. I have bought a good selection of chew toys to give to him as substitution, but even then he usually goes back for your shoes, legs, whatever he had his mind made up on.
He bites legs because they move. This isn't your puppy being naughty, it's your puppy sucumbing to hard-wired drives that he can't deny. It is very natural and healthy behavior. Annoying, but not "acting up" -- just playing.
He corners your daughter because he thinks of her as another puppy. Puppies play-fight to establish rank. He's trying to figure out who between the two of them is the "Boss". The fact that he has the opportunity to corner your daughter tells me that he has waaaaayyyy too much freedom at this stage. I would eliminate any unleashed interaction between them until she is 9 or 10.
As long as he's on a leash and you're on the other end paying attention, there's no reason they can't be together. But a play-bite can hurt your child.
He is extremely stubborn, and very defiant, and does not respond well to discipline.
Most dogs (if not all) respond well to discipline. Remember that the goal of discipline is simply to communicate dissatisfaction. You don't correct to hurt a dog, you correct to let the dog know that you aren't happy with a behavior, and that there are consequences when they perform that behavior. If your dog isn't responding to corrections it's possible that:
1. The timing is off. If you wait more than 1.5 seconds to correct a dog for a behavior, it's too late. You have a very small window of effectiveness on these things.
2. You are inconsistent. If you correct for a behavior once and then don't correct for it later, you're sending mixed signals. Remember that a lot of bad behaviors (like, eating the sofa) are self rewarding. This means that you don't need to praise the dog for doing it, the act alone is a reward. So, when you're not there to correct or stop a dog, they are actually rewarded for doing a bad thing. It's not simply a correction or a neutral response.
To improve my consistency I realized that I needed to monitor my dogs 24/7 while they are learning the House Rules. To facilitate this, I use a crate when I can't monitor them. It keeps them out of trouble when I'm not able to be hands-on.
I have bought some nice soup bones for him to chew, so that he would not be tempted to chew on other things. That is when things got scary. One night I gave him a bone in the downstairs bathroom. I was upstairs folding laundry when he came up and laid down on the floor to chew the bone. At some point I reach down to pick up a sock that had fallen right next to him, he when crazy and growled and snapped at me. I was able to pick him up by the collar and put him outside for a while. Later that evening, he came back to my room with the bone and was chewing it peacefully while I was in the bathroom getting ready for the night. When I walked back into the room, he just went completely crazy, barking loudly, growling, snarling, and biting at the air. I could not get past him, and I was too intimidated to go and grab his collar.
I know how you feel. I've been intimidated by my parents demon Chihuahua. A german shepherd flys at me teeth first several times a day, but that Chihuahua is...terrifying in comparison.
By caving in to the show of aggression (as you did, and as I did with the Chihuahua) we are simply rewarding aggression. We are teaching the dog that aggression is a good tool to use when they want us to leave them alone.
Because this dog shows signs of being VERY protective of his resources (food, treats, etc) you need to be careful. If you aren't comfortable confronting him when he's agressive you need to, for now, prevent him from becoming agressive. Remove all of his triggers. No more soup bones, I'd take his toys off of the ground as well. Don't give him access to anything that you'll have to try and take away, at least not until you've done pack structure work with him.
I had to wait until he calmed down and walked away from the bone to go back into the room. At this point I am very concerned about this behavior, and wonder if I should even try to keep him. I have the feeling that he could be dangerous, and wonder if that behavior can even be changed. I have had dogs (German Sheppard) when I grew up, and I am used to big powerful dogs, but have never encountered that situation. I very much wanted this puppy to work out for us, but I do not want any accident with my child or me. Can some one share their opinions on the matter? Maybe this behavior falls in the range of normal and can be worked with, or is this something that is too difficult to correct and I am taking too much of a risk?
Thanks for the help.
Anne
Ultimately, your family comes first. I think there's a lot you can do with this dog and I haven't seen anything here that is really a bad sign, but he's NOT a happy-go-lucky Calm Submissive Golden Retriever. It will take some work to get him where you want him to be.
If you don't have the energy or the dedication to do the work needed, he will become a dangerous dog. If you have the energy and take the time, I think you'll be in good shape. You need to assess your level of commitment, because you can only keep him if you're committed to him. If you let him do his own thing and become more agressive/dominant you're putting your family at risk.
So. It's your call. What's it going to be?
_________________________
 Some dogs hate hats.
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#169120 - 12/17/07 12:07 PM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: David Eagle]
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Anne Schloesing
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 12/16/07
Posts: 3
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Hi David,
Thank you for taking the time to give me a knowledgeable and very insightful reply. It does help a lot. I must tell you I am still undecided, but the input helps. To clarify, I must say that while I am not a trained animal behaviorist, I consider myself a good animal person. I usually have no problem dealing with animal behavior, and as I mentioned I have had German sheppards my entire life. So, when I said that I never ran accross that kind of behavior, and that I was intimidated to me this is worrisome. How commun is this in puppies, and could that stem from the fact that he was removed from his litter way too early, then, the man that took him before I had him, left him in his garage all day, and all night for a week, without much interraction. Could that result in a already psychotic dog? Essentially this is what I am affraid I could be looking at... Anne
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#169125 - 12/17/07 12:21 PM
Re: Puppy aggressive behavior
[Re: Carol Boche]
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Lynne Barrows
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 09/22/07
Posts: 794
Loc: S. Florida
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Anne, as a new puppy owner I can tell you that Carol's advice about a crate is a life saver with a new pup.
If this pup really was only 4 weeks old when you got him, then that will account for some of the biting behavior you are seeing. Usually the mother and littermates teach the pup bite inhibition from 4 weeks to 8 weeks or so, and if your pup was not w/ the litter, he didn't receive any of that 'education.'
But much of the biting is probably just normal prey drive; try to redirect this with a toy or rolled towel. Tell your daughter to keep a towel with her when she's playing w/ the puppy. Also, don't leave your puppy and your daughter alone together.
If the pup is really getting crazy, try to redirect him and then put him in his crate for a bit to give everyone a break.
As far as the growling and snapping go, you need to nip this in the bud. When he has a bone (or whatever) and growls you can do a very forceful scruff shake and take the item away. If you don't correct this behavior it will only get worse.
If you are afraid to do this, then you might want to consider rehoming this pup.
Good luck and keep us posted as to your progress...
(what a good post David!)
Just read your last post and sounds like the pup was really off to a poor start....
Edited by Lynne Barrows (12/17/07 12:29 PM)
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