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#236794 - 04/20/09 12:13 PM
Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
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Vito Polera
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 19
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Hello everyone -
I've been a member, and just generally reading and reading and reading posts for some time now, and let me say this seems to be a fantastic site with very knowledgeable people. I've also been doing other research via the web for some time now.
I'm familiar with several types of breeds and dogs in general, but, I've been interested in finding a protective dog that could defend my loved ones should some baddie (God forbid) attack them. I have heard that there are a good amount of breeds that would physically defend their people, but may not be good at Schutzhund, and that's OK. The primary purpose of this pup will be a family member and family protector, and I will be looking for activities to participate in with my dog, so if he happens to a breed that takes to Schutzhund, then we can go do that.
I am looking forward to great amounts of training, socialization, etc., and I am very familiar with general preparations regarding adding a pup to the family, but I'm just not sure about which breed. Of course there are the breeds most commonly mentioned on this site and in Schutzhund contacts in general, the GSD and Mal. Re. the GSD, I'm a bit concerned about insurance issues as I'm most likely moving in the next year or so, and I'd hate to have problems with insurance or housing due to breed of dog I have. Additionally, it is my understanding that GSDs as a breed are significantly more predisposed to health issues than the majority of other breeds...in fact I've read others' personal experiences saying how much they loved the breed, but won't get another because of the health problems. IF this is not the case, please advise me how I can avoid these issues, and forgive my ignorance. I'm slightly reserved about the Mal as well as I have heard they don't ever really calm down. I don't mind a bit of frivolity, my fiancee has her Lab, and we've got a couple of kittens, but from accounts I've read of those with Mals, it seems they might be too much to handle. With regard to other breeds like Giant Schnauzers, Rhodesian Ridgebacks, and Komondors, although many websites list these sorts of dogs as excellent for physical protection, this site dismisses them for one reason or another. I am more inclined to believe this site as I don't really know the criteria with which the other sites make their judgments, but you guys all seem to offer personal experience, reasoning, books, etc. as evidence of your opinions.
Does anyone have any recommendations of breeds that might get around these issues? I do apologize if I have misinterpreted anything...please feel free to correct me. Thank you in advance for your help.
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#236796 - 04/20/09 12:19 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Vito Polera]
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Alyssa Myracle
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 3280
Loc: WA, USA
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I have heard that there are a good amount of breeds that would physically defend their people, but may not be good at Schutzhund, and that's OK.
In my opinion, this is backwards.
If a dog lacks the drive and temperment to do Schutzhund, it could not POSSIBLY be a Protection dog. Protection requires MORE, not LESS of a dog.
Do you want a "dog alarm", or a real protection dog?
I would advise against a Malinois for anything short of a very prepared, experienced dog owner. They are less forgiving of inexperience than other breeds.
My advice to you is to go to Schutzhund, French Ring and Mondio Ring clubs, and see some dogs work.
Talk to the owners. Learn about the training and time commitment to these dogs.
Find out how many of these dogs are "family pets first".
Become familiar with the temperments of working breed dogs, and specific breed traits.
Edited by Alyssa Myracle (04/20/09 12:20 PM)
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#236801 - 04/20/09 12:35 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Alyssa Myracle]
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Vito Polera
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 19
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Thank you for your input, Alyssa. You didn't really answer my question though and posed a question I thought I addressed, so I'm afraid I wasn't clear enough - sorry about that.
"In my opinion, this is backwards.
If a dog lacks the drive and temperment to do Schutzhund, it could not POSSIBLY be a Protection dog. Protection requires MORE, not LESS of a dog." That makes sense, I agree. I was thinking about Mastiffs of several sorts which people don't seem to like to use for Schutzhund, but still seem to be pretty good home guardians.
"Do you want a "dog alarm", or a real protection dog?" I would like a dog that would physically defend, not just bark or growl, if someone should attack a loved one.
"I would advise against a Malinois for anything short of a very prepared, experienced dog owner. They are less forgiving of inexperience than other breeds." This is what I have gathered from others - you are much better at putting this into words than I was.
"My advice to you is to go to Schutzhund, French Ring and Mondio Ring clubs, and see some dogs work." I am actually out of town working in Tokyo at the moment, and I'd just like to spend some of my off time researching breeds. From what I gather from the internet, the main dogs for these sports are Malinois and GSD, as well as Dutchies, Belgians of other types, and the occassional Bouvier.
"Talk to the owners. Learn about the training and time commitment to these dogs.
Find out how many of these dogs are "family pets first"." I hope it is not an improper intention to have a dog that I would like to protect my family be treated as part of the family as well? From those of you who do have dogs who will protect your family, are they not considered part of the family? My impression was that, even just on a practical level, it would be beneficial for them to be a part of the family and care for the family as it would motivate them to protect. I am not experienced in this area, however. My family did have GSDs, but that was before I was even born. I have more experience now with sporting breeds.
"Become familiar with the temperments of working breed dogs, and specific breed traits." Thanks, but are you aware of any breeds that might be suitable to protect, but don't fall under the unfortunate categories of HO insurance companies' dangerous dogs list?
Edited by Vito Polera (04/20/09 12:46 PM)
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#236804 - 04/20/09 12:49 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Vito Polera]
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Alyssa Myracle
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 3280
Loc: WA, USA
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Depending on what level of protection training you desire, it can be perfectly reasonable to expect a dog to be a family dog AND a protector.
A true Personal Protection Dog is NOT a family dog.
A Sport dog that has had his confidence built and has high threshholds will potentially provide a solid deterrant against all but the most deteremined intruders, while still being a very nice family pet.
Ultimately, very few people need a *true* Personal Protection Dog. 99.9% of attackers will be deterred by a very convincing, large barking dog of known working type. The type of criminal that will ignore the big barking dog on the other side of the door, is the type of criminal who will simply shoot the dog, Protection trained or not.
I have every faith that my dog will bark civilly at an intruder into my home. She will stand her ground, until the intruder enters within 5 feet. After that, I cannot say what she would do.
Would she bite, in a *real* situation? I doubt it.
Would she continue to put on a nice threat display? Probably, because everything she has ever experienced tells her that if she looks threatening long enough, the scary thing will go away.
IF she did take a bite, I doubt she'd hold it. It'd be a "chomp-then-spit" scenario, and she'd probably lose all confidence after she realized there was no sleeve in play.
Do I need more than that?
No. I neither want, nor need a dog that will die on my behalf.
I just want enough time to get to a weapon- and she has already proven an ability to perform that job admirably.
I suspect you need the same level of dog.
I know of very few people who need beyond that.
Mastiffs are impressive in appearance, but also notoriously heavy sleepers, making them unlikely to alert to a sound in the night. If you would like a dog that will scare the bejezus out of an intruder on looks alone, a Mastiff is a good choice.
They lack, however, agility and many drives that lend themselves to proper training of a sport or protection work.
Large dogs tend to be less desirable in a working dog; their weight and mass hinder some of the work.
Prey drive is crucial in training a dog in bitework- any dog (regardless of breed) that lacks this drive, is worthless for the work.
The problem with "off" breeds is the shortage of breeders that are breeding for correct drives and temperment. Many are breeding oversized, thin-nerved dogs that while looking impressive, lack the ability to function successfully in any sort of work.
Even within the German Shepherd breed, this is true, but not nearly to the extent that it is in other breeds.
Ultimately, as I tell everyone who asks this question, there is a very good reason that the US Military nor the overwhelming majority of Police Departments chose GSDs, Rotties, Bouviers, Mals and Dutchies.
They do the work.
Better than the rest.
With regards to Dangerous Dog lists...
I'd have to see the list to see if any "worthwhile" breeds did NOT fall on the list.
Personally, I'd recommend moving to a state that hasn't restricted your right to own the dog of your choice.
Edited by Alyssa Myracle (04/20/09 12:58 PM)
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#236819 - 04/20/09 01:20 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Jennifer Mullen]
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Vito Polera
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 19
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Thank you so much for the responses - quick and thorough.
I now have more information with which to evaluate my needs and which breeds would fit best.
"Personally, I'd recommend moving to a state that hasn't restricted your right to own the dog of your choice." Believe me, I agree. Unfortunately, it seems even if a state doesn't have one now, they very well might in the future. I think it's an absolute shame. I'm still considering certain "dangerous dog breeds", however - just compiling options that may circumvent this potential issue.
Jennifer - we do not have kids...yet. We do have plans, however. I am also looking for a breed known to be excellent with children, but of course it largely depends on the individual dog, it's upbringing, etc.
Alyssa -
"The problem with "off" breeds is the shortage of breeders that are breeding for correct drives and temperment. Many are breeding oversized, thin-nerved dogs that while looking impressive, lack the ability to function successfully in any sort of work." I agree. This is ridiculous. I've been interested in certain breeds, and then I go to check out breeders and find that I need to import a dog to get anything that's not a show dog.
"Even within the German Shepherd breed, this is true, but not nearly to the extent that it is in other breeds." My other concern with GSDs is that they seem to be weak in the general health department. Perhaps this is only in certain lines, but my perception thus far was that the overall breed health has been hindered significantly due to overbreeding. My family has had GSDs in the past (white and otherwise), and I'd love another if I could get past these purported health issues....
"With regards to Dangerous Dog lists...
I'd have to see the list to see if any "worthwhile" breeds did NOT fall on the list."
I don't have any particular one, but I've checked several, and in general they seem to punish people for owning GSDs, Dobermans, Rotties, Boxers, Pits, Staffies, and any other dog that looks like a Pit of Staffie, mut or otherwise.
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#236821 - 04/20/09 01:28 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Vito Polera]
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Alyssa Myracle
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/06/08
Posts: 3280
Loc: WA, USA
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GSDs can be very robust and healthy dogs, outliving many other breeds by as many as 10 years, IF proper precautions are taken.
The lines must be absolutely clear of health issues.
I would not accept a dog from a first pairing. Rather, I would look for a dog from a pairing that has proven highly successful in the past.
Look at the past litters, find out if any genetic health issues cropped up in them as they aged.
Read as much as possible about vaccinations, the raw diet, correct age appropriate exercise, etc.
I firmly believe that if these precautions are taken, you will be just fine.
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#236823 - 04/20/09 01:32 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Vito Polera]
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Vito Polera
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 19
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Randy,
I'd love to know which breeds you have in mind. My family has had GSDs in the past, different kinds - whites, sable, and mixes. However, I was younger at the time, and the dogs were more the responsibility of the family, where as this dog would be primarily my responsibility. My experience between then and now has been primarily with sporting/hunting dogs.
Regarding handling experience with these sorts of dogs, I'm more than willing to do what I can to get more of it. I suppose everyone has to start somewhere, and I'd like to make this next venture the start of a long term relationship with a particular breed in which I can really grow to understand the breed in general. In short, I've been planning my next pup for some time now, and I have no intention of going about it half-assed - I will be a dedicated trainer and owner.
If you offer your suggestions as to breed, and then recommend that I go and visit with owners of that particular breed, and speak to them, and meet their dogs and have them evaluate whether they think I could properly handle a dog of that type, I will do just that. It is my intention to find a match - I have no interest in a pairing of owner and breed that proves less than optimal for either.
I'm very curious as to your suggestions!
Edited by Vito Polera (04/20/09 01:35 PM)
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#236824 - 04/20/09 01:34 PM
Re: Advice Regarding "Off-Breeds" for New Poster
[Re: Vito Polera]
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Vito Polera
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 02/15/09
Posts: 19
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Thank you so much for the information regarding health issues and precautions, Alyssa. That seems to be excellent advice.
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