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#40368 - 12/20/01 10:20 PM
Losing Drive
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Glenn Wills
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 394
Loc: Kansas
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Can someone expand on something that I read in another post? It dealt with Prey drive. Is it really possible for a dog who has the genetics for high prey drive to lose this drive if not used? If so can this affect both pups and adults? Can a dog having the genetics for fight drive, civil and or defensive agression also lose these drives if not maintained through real life situations or training? How is it possible for a dog to just automatically lose something that it was born with? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
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#40369 - 12/21/01 06:59 AM
Re: Losing Drive
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Glenn Wills
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 394
Loc: Kansas
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I guess it makes sense that a dog such as a person could be born with all the proper genetics to do certain things extremely well but unless this gift of good or great genes were nurtured or brought out all the genetics in the world would not make you a winner. For example, Michael Jordan's offspring would certainly have the genetic potential and propably a genetic advantage to play basketball or any sport but unless his offspring were focused, worked hard and properly taught how to play sports the amount of sucess they would enjoy would be limited. The old addage of you either use it or lose it kind of thing, no matter how much natural ability you may of had in the beginning. Again any thoughts?
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#40370 - 12/21/01 08:17 AM
Re: Losing Drive
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Mike Russell
Registered: 09/26/01
Posts: 723
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according to a recent seminar with Frans Slaman, even the best dog can be dumbed down. If you don't work it, it goes brain dead and sometimes it can be difficult to recover that ability to what it was or what it could have been.
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#40371 - 12/21/01 09:15 AM
Re: Losing Drive
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Vince P.
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1087
Loc: NJ
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I think that was my post you are speaking about. And yes all these drives if left dormant will diminish. As in my prior post I gave examples that Ed has keep some great pups for himself only to realize that he did not have the time to work them. They soon had to be sold as pet quality pups. Defensive drive if not worked can lead to a dog being locked in prey. This can be a long and thankless process to overcome.
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#40372 - 12/21/01 11:45 AM
Re: Losing Drive
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Ellen Nickelsberg
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 144
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[QUOTE] How is it possible for a dog to just automatically lose something that it was born with? [/QUOTE]
I don't think it is. I think the expression of inborn drives can sometimes be distorted by training so as to make them appear to be lost -- change the training methods that distort the expression of the drive and the natural drive will reappear if it was truly there in the first place.
[QUOTE] And yes all these drives if left dormant will diminish. [/QUOTE]
That has never been my experience. Maybe I am thinking something totally different from what is meant by that statement, so here are two examples of mine of two different dogs in two different training venues.
Example #1 - I worked my GSD female until she was about 4 years old. I titled her in AKC obedience first and then began training her in all 3 phases of schutzhund. The TD at the club I was working in at the time became fixated on a problem with the grip -- this problem was genetic and it became clear enough pretty quick that no amount of training manipulation would correct it (it could only be covered up). Yet the TD kept hammering on it -- trying to change what couldn't be changed instead of trying to work with the good things the dog brought to the party -- namely, excellent natural tracking ability, willing obedience and good protection instincts. This created an adversarial training relationship as opposed to a cooperative one. We all got disgusted because no one was achieving success albeit in only one small area. I gave up on the dog thinking she would never pass in protection. At the same time I got involved in herding with another dog and stopped working this female -- she became a house pet for 2-3 years. When she was 7 years old a new trainer suggested I let him test her -- I told him the background and the problem with her grip. The new trainer said that there was nothing wrong with her grip that would prevent her from passing in protection. I decided to start working her again after 2-3 years of no work. She had forgotten absolutely nothing and her drive was actually higher in all 3 phases than when I stopped working her. Less than 9 months later, at 8 years of age, she got her SchH1 with a 92 in protection.
Example #2 - I have a super high drive sheep herding GSD. He only operates in 5th gear -- always has and still does now at 5 years old. He absolutely drove me NUTS because I could not slow him down -- I thought I had to slow him down as per the "show/trial" herdering mentality. I stopped working him for 2 years while I concentrated on an easier (for me) dog. During these two years of not working him, I learned a great deal more about herding -- I understood the exceptional value of what my high drive dog had in him and I finally understood how to work WITH it (cooperative relationship) instead of against it (adversarial relationship). I started working him again after a 2 year hiatus. He was actally higher drive and more responsive (obedient) when I started him again than when I stopped working him -- and his drive is still actually increasing.
Bottom line -- I don't think genetics (what is naturally IN the dog) changes or disappears. I do think that training (what is artificially put into the dog) can and does diminish if not practiced.
_________________________
Ellen Nickelsberg
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#40373 - 12/21/01 01:05 PM
Re: Losing Drive
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Vince P.
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1087
Loc: NJ
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Ellen:
Let me expand for you. First I am talking young dogs. Secondly I am not only talking working but socialization as well. Many SchH trainers buy 3-4 high drive promising puppies with the idea of working them all for 10 months and then choosing the best one and selling the rest. Many times your intentions are bigger than your free time and only 1 or 2 gets the socialization and working necessary. After a few months the others can only be sold as pets because their drive was never given time to mature and is reduced dramatically. Ed has mentioned that he can not count the amount of times he kept back high drive puppies only to find that he did not have time to work them and after sometime lost their drive for the work.
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#40374 - 12/21/01 01:15 PM
Re: Losing Drive
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Dave Lilley
Registered: 08/10/01
Posts: 388
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Vince... is the working ability gone permanently in these dogs? Or, will it just take some time and a bit of TLC?
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#40375 - 12/21/01 01:16 PM
Re: Losing Drive
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Glenn Wills
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 394
Loc: Kansas
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This is getting interesting. Yes Vince P. it must have been you're post I read. You said basically the exact same thing I read in that post. I would appreciate you explaining why and how a dog can get locked into PREY if you do not continue to work the dog in DEFENSE. Am I reading that correctly? Maybe I'm extremely naieve but this just doesn't make sense to me. I cannot imagine a dog with a high drive in defense ever completely losing this because a dog that is defensive by nature wouldn't just become a pussy cat and accept strangers or a threatening gesture from anyone would they? I am also thinking of a CIVIL dog too. Of course you guys are more experienced in this field than myself. I would just like to make more sense of it. This is an interesting facet of what happens when a good dog is neglected.
Ellen you're post makes alot of sense to me and I appreciate you and eveyone taking the time to talk about this. Nice examples! I hope to hear more on this. Thanks all.
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#40376 - 12/21/01 01:20 PM
Re: Losing Drive
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Glenn Wills
Registered: 12/15/01
Posts: 394
Loc: Kansas
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Too funny, Vince P. is on the ball. As I was typing my reply to his and Ellens's post Vince and someone else has posted more. I guess I'm not the only one home on a Friday,  . Ok now it's edit time for me. Vince thanks for getting a bit more specific. You are only refering to young dogs or puppies right? This would never happen in a dog that has reached maturity as I understand it.
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#40377 - 12/21/01 01:31 PM
Re: Losing Drive
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Vince P.
Registered: 07/13/01
Posts: 1087
Loc: NJ
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Yes only young dogs. Once a defensive drive is matured and showing there is no way back. Locking in prey occurs before the defensive drive shows it's head.
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