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#20120 - 03/12/05 12:07 AM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Chris Duhon
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 725
Loc: Southern Louisiana
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[QUOTE] I question their ability to protect in a real situation. They are, for the most part, too small. I do not see that they could engage a 200+ lb. man wielding a bat, club, or even gun and prevail. [/QUOTE]Now there is a man who has never seen a NVBK trial, LOL! Joseph, you are waaayy off the mark, and thats ok, because you did state your not a trainer, and that basically your trying to learn. However, if you think that a little Mal can't do the work, here's a story, a guy by the name of Gus Artilles of Vom Artilles kennels, president of NVBK-America bred and trained a dog for a police department. When that dog and handler answered a call of a store robbery in progress, they arrived to find the robber still in the store (by the way this was captured on CCTV) the dog and handler deployed to an open door in the back of the store, upon entering the back the dog had a clear run down the isle at the robber from the back of the store, the handler released his dog (quietly) the robber never turned around fast enough and the dog hit him in the armpit area while the robber was standing their with arms extended and gun pointing at the clerk. The dog came away with a severed arm, yes severed arm, as in no longer connected to body. Not sure what more these little guys need to do to prove themselves. Plus, I'v seen Mals the size and bigger than some presas. In the Mals your old NVBK bloodlines are huge, 85-100lbs range which aren't extremely difficult to come by. I have been around the bully breeds my whole life and to me Presas are like the old man that has been married for 35 yrs he just doesn't want to be bothered, but if you push his buttons long enough he'll get crazy on your butt long enough to shoo you away, The Mal is like that crazy a$$ young hard headed cousin you have that is down to do anything, anytime, with anyone, and in the words of viva La Bam "don't give a damn" (replace last word with a better 4 letter word) 
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COL Nathan R. Jessup for President
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#20121 - 03/12/05 12:57 AM
Re: Presa pup questions
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John DeKruyff
Registered: 08/14/01
Posts: 207
Loc: California
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[QUOTE] John, I see what you are saying about teaching the dog to bite. Do you really have to have amazing prey drive to teach the dog to bite, or will a normal level of prey drive suffice? [/QUOTE]Joseph, I like to have a High Drive dog that likes to bite, because it makes the training so much easier and fun than a dog that has little to no Prey Drive.
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#20122 - 03/12/05 08:30 AM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Will Rambeau
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 5095
Loc: Idaho
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Joseph - actually, once a dog is assigned to a handler, both the Military and Police Departments work very hard to keep the handler/ dog team together and intact. We've discussed this here on the forum quite a few times, trust me on that! And your comment that personal dogs that work in the tracking function are not personal protection dogs tells me that you really need to do more research about the subject of personal protection dogs and stop falling for the false advertising of scam artists that sell dogs as ppd's. ( I've seen several *good* ppd's start off as SchH dogs, they could obviously track, right? Rarely do I see a ppd that will *actually* defend it's owner not have a background in one of the classic European dog sports, i.e., SchH, Ring Sport, NVBK, KNPV, etc. )
"Lastly, I do not prescribe to the idea that any one or two breeds are so much better at protection than another. Maybe we are seeing a little personal preference playing part in some responses here as well?"
Personal preference? Well, actually, I prefer a proven product that works. I'm currently working on a book about real world protection by dogs of their owners and I'm willing to bet that I've researched and categorized more civilian owner protection by dogs in actual incidents than anyone else in this country. And many of the new breeds being heavily advertised by fly-by-night pp trainers/ kennels just don't stand up to looking closely at the exaggerated claims made about them. Also, did you ever notice.......the professionals whose life *absolutely* depends on their dogs defending them use......GSD's and Mal's. The vast majority of people that buy obscure breeds for ppd's have little or no understanding about what truly makes an effective ppd, and most new owners have been scammed, plain and simple.
"but I do know that there is more than one way to skin a cat. I doubt seriously that one could not train a dog in protection utilizing fight/defense drive."
Ummm......you and your family certainly won't like the results of that. The odds of your dog having good enough nerves to survive that type of training would be pretty remote. And I notice that you keep mentioning fight drive. Please, do a "search" here on the forum and research that drive a bit, if you would - it's incredibly rare in dogs.
Tracy,
If you'd look through the old protection posts, you'll see that I almost always tell people to get a dog that just barks aggressively - that fulfills most peoples need for protection. The more that you want your dog to do from a protection standpoint, the more it costs and the higher your legal liability becomes.
Of course, if you have real need for a dog to stop a determined attacker, you'll need a top end dog and those cost....a lot.
And Joseph, buying a puppy for a future protection dog is a classic beginners mistake. 95% of dogs bought for that reason scrap out of serious protection training. Be prepared to enjoy him for what he is, which is a good attitude for owning any dog.
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#20123 - 03/12/05 09:25 AM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Joseph Weissglass
Registered: 03/08/05
Posts: 10
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I probably should have phrased what I was trying to say better than I did--too many things going on at the same time.
By no means do I think that "real working dogs"--police and military and otherwise are not protection dogs. I have less respect for those dogs than only their human counterparts.
I am glad to hear that the police departments and military are doing that. Has that always been the case? I have spoken with several retired K9 officer and one retired k9 soldier and they commented on the fact that their dogs were rotated too frequently--the dogs were sorted to match the assigment, but the handlers were not.
[QUOTE] you really need to do more research about the subject of personal protection dogs and stop falling for the false advertising of scam artists that sell dogs as ppd's [/QUOTE]That is the reason I am here. My pup is only 10 weeks old at the moment. He is at least 9 months (or more) away from even the first steps of protection training. He is still learning puppy manners, etc. I have to go through basic and advanced OB and have him reevaluated and his hips tested at the least. I do understand where you are coming from though--I have oft been told that I have a semi-stubborn sounding tone when I am researching and asking questions. People tell me that I just will not accept an answer as an answer and always have to play devil's advocate.
Certainly, I did not buy my boy (Ares) just for personal protection. I would hope that I am never in the situation where I really felt that I NEEDED a dog to protect me or my family. If Ares does not pan out to have the nerves, temperament, etc., then he will be the best pet around.
My understanding from my research is that "fight drive," probably is not a drive in and of itself. It is a combination of defense drive and prey drive. Everything I have read has suggested that fight drive is more common in molossers because, well, they were once bread for fighting. I am not sure that is completely acccurate, considering it has been decades since dog fights were widely accepted.
[QUOTE] I've seen several *good* ppd's start off as SchH dogs, they could obviously track, right? Rarely do I see a ppd that will *actually* defend it's owner not have a background in one of the classic European dog sports, i.e., SchH, Ring Sport, NVBK, KNPV, etc [/QUOTE]Will, does k9ps compare to any of these sports? would it be better to start in sch--again, assuming that Ares is up to it when the time comes--and then move into k9ps or PSA?
I hope no one thinks that I am cocky enough to think that I know more than anyone on this board. I am a self-declared neophyte unto the world of protection training. Thank you all for your input!!
Joseph
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Joseph
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#20124 - 03/12/05 11:04 AM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Chris Duhon
Registered: 08/14/04
Posts: 725
Loc: Southern Louisiana
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[QUOTE]That is the reason I am here. My pup is only 10 weeks old at the moment. He is at least 9 months (or more) away from even the first steps of protection training. He is still learning puppy manners, etc. I have to go through basic and advanced OB and have him reevaluated and his hips tested at the least. [/QUOTE]Personal protection training starts way before then, like now, you should be doing puppy bitework, and OB now. Believe it or not, you have to teach dogs how to bite. Since you have already gotten the pup, and this is your intended use, I would **HIGHLY* recommend getting some of Ed's DVD's to give your pup the best chance so succeed. Most if not all of Ed's DVD's can be applied regardless of what sport or discipline you choose to do with your dog. I'v included a link to a picture of my pup at 13weeks old doing a heel and focus, others have different methods and timetables but I like to start them off as soon as possible, usually 8weeks old. This was taught with 100% motivation, you should not use any compulsion with a puppy, but this is just to show you it can be done.
Bud and I doing motivational heel at 13weeks old, I know it says 13mo it should have been 13wks
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COL Nathan R. Jessup for President
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#20125 - 03/12/05 12:07 PM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Michele Moore
Registered: 09/20/04
Posts: 69
Loc: AZ
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Joseph, have you gone to visit any SchH clubs? Or even any ringsport or the K9PS club? I don't really know anything about K9 pro sports, but I think if you go visit a club, even if it isn't the disipline you are ultimately interested in they can help you out with where to begin. I noticed your original question was,
[QUOTE] does anyone have a recommendation about where I can get him tested by an unbiased trainer?[/QUOTE]Going to clubs would probably be one way to accomplish this. I don't think anyone is trying to discourage you from doing protection sports with you're dog but it is a lot of work. I'm just a novice myself so that is just my opinion. Chris is right though, the motivational work can be (and should be) started right away.
By the way, there is a mal at my club that I have seen take down an (approximately) 200 lb. helper...and she is about a 55 lb female. 
Michele
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#20127 - 03/12/05 09:27 PM
Re: Presa pup questions
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Will Rambeau
Registered: 01/25/03
Posts: 5095
Loc: Idaho
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Joseph,
Although puppy temperament testing is helpful, your puppy is already getting past the optimal age for it.
The best temperament testing for protection is done when the dog is mature and can be tested in both prey and defense. And with slow to mature breeds, this can be around age two to three years ( and owners really don't want to wait that long, let me tell ya!!  )
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