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#77783 - 07/04/05 10:17 AM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Andres Martin
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/15/05
Posts: 265
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Will _ duly noted. My apologies for those offended.
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#77784 - 07/04/05 11:51 AM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Johan Engelen
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 400
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Quote:
BTW, the correct rumor as to the extra genetics in the Czech GSD's woodpile is Carpathian wolf, not Malinois.
The story goes like this. There were two Carpathian wolves captured and given to the z PS. They were hunted and captured because they were proven man eaters. The pair had hunted and killed 3 rural people "somewhere" in the Transylvanian plateau before being caught.
They were abnormally aggressive and would fight men without regard for their own safety. . .true "peklo lovecký pes", or hell hounds. LOL
This is the rumor that was whispered in the Czech Republic and the former DDR long before the Malinois was even available to any extent in Eastern Europe. There are a number of reasons this rumor was carried on, not the least of which being the civilian's view of the z PS dogs and their purpose.
This rumor, along with the Malinois one, is utterly false.
There has been an influence of mals in the GSD stock. During WW I and WWII a vast number of mals were comandeered by the german occupation. It isn't without any logic that a number off these dogs were included in the GSD stock after the hostilities ended. At that time Eastern Europe was accessible by westerners
Greetings
Johan
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#77785 - 07/04/05 03:25 PM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Robert VanCamp
Registered: 11/28/01
Posts: 4096
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"There has been an influence of mals in the GSD stock."
Where, when, and how?
You have any proof?
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#77786 - 07/04/05 04:44 PM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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jeff oehlsen
Registered: 11/20/02
Posts: 1327
Loc: Colorado
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I think it is sad that the gsd has come to the point where people want to make it more like a malinois. There are still plenty of nice gsd's out there. I also think that if you don't think that they are crossing the two breeds over in europe then you need to look again. They don't care as much as we do about who was who. Look at Du pottois. He lied on all his pedigrees so he would not be copied. He was punished for it, eventually, but he produced really nice dogs. Until we here in the U.S. can produce better dogs I think we need to leave well enough alone. How many of you would be willing to cull a litter? OOOPS not good enough, BANG Next! It has too be done. We also have weak dogs breeding with Shutzhund 3's that I wouldn't hesitate to catch in a carhart jacket. We have no control whatsoever over this. Breed Wardens in the U.S.? I have no problems with the concept. Practice could be a nightmare. Look a few posts back at what that idiot said to Will. I congradulate you will on your self-control.  Van Camp, I saw on this forum a gsd that HAD to have malinois in it and it is being offered at stud. It was from belgium, and they went to shepherds to help with the grips that they wanted. Why wouldn't they go the other way? We could make the gsd what we wanted if we had the guts to cull litters, tell the truth about our dogs, especially the weak points and have a universally similar definition of what drive we wanted, and basic character we wanted. It would not be impossible to do this. Putting a video on the internet is easy (well easy to everyone but me!) Then you would have something to at least shoot for. O.K. I quit. too long, sorry
_________________________
I am smarter than my dog, your just not.
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#77787 - 07/04/05 07:07 PM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Johan Engelen
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 400
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5 Mals of my grandfather were commandeered during WWII by german officers and these dogs were directly shipped to germany we suspect for personal use.
Why? I don't know but the fact is that there is a distinct possibility that these dogs were used to breed with. It is not because GSD people look with disregard towards the Malinois that this breed hasn't had an genetic interaction with the GSD. And don't forget that GSD, BS and Dutch Sheperd origins are geograficaly spoken very close. People have moved in this region from one country to another and mingled why not dogs?
Greetings
Johan
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#77788 - 07/04/05 07:17 PM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Johan Engelen
Leerburg Web Board User
Registered: 06/11/05
Posts: 400
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Quote:
I think it is sad that the gsd has come to the point where people want to make it more like a malinois. There are still plenty of nice gsd's out there. I also think that if you don't think that they are crossing the two breeds over in europe then you need to look again. They don't care as much as we do about who was who. Look at Du pottois. He lied on all his pedigrees so he would not be copied. He was punished for it, eventually, but he produced really nice dogs. Until we here in the U.S. can produce better dogs I think we need to leave well enough alone. How many of you would be willing to cull a litter? OOOPS not good enough, BANG Next! It has too be done. We also have weak dogs breeding with Shutzhund 3's that I wouldn't hesitate to catch in a carhart jacket. We have no control whatsoever over this. Breed Wardens in the U.S.? I have no problems with the concept. Practice could be a nightmare. Look a few posts back at what that idiot said to Will. I congradulate you will on your self-control. Van Camp, I saw on this forum a gsd that HAD to have malinois in it and it is being offered at stud. It was from belgium, and they went to shepherds to help with the grips that they wanted. Why wouldn't they go the other way? We could make the gsd what we wanted if we had the guts to cull litters, tell the truth about our dogs, especially the weak points and have a universally similar definition of what drive we wanted, and basic character we wanted. It would not be impossible to do this. Putting a video on the internet is easy (well easy to everyone but me!) Then you would have something to at least shoot for. O.K. I quit. too long, sorry
My opinion on the reason why the GSD and other working breeds are in "trouble" is due to the lack off selection and use of a sufficient part of the stock of these breeds in an extreme sport. I'm convinced that you can create the perfect gsd but if you don't put the breed to its limits, and you don't challange these limits, you'll drift silently towards the current situation and in 40 years time you'll be at point zero.
So the question should be how can we test our dogs to an extend that all weaknesses are eliminated trough the selectiveness of the tests.
Greetings
Johan
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#77789 - 07/04/05 07:46 PM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Greg Long
Registered: 02/09/05
Posts: 59
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Well I used to be a GSD person and now Im only a working dog person.But if I was still a GSD person then I would lobby to have a breed survey test like the Schutzhund of old and the sport version could coexist.But the sport should not be used to determine a dogs worthiness to pass on genes.Max was against breeding for sport when the breed was still young.IMO sport is sport and not "work" because the reward for work is completion of the task and reward for sport is titles and trophies.There are 2 totally different attitudes for training and therefore there are 2 different attitudes for breeding.Just my point of view.
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#77790 - 07/05/05 01:48 AM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Brigita Brinac
Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 186
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>>The lack of mixes "dominating" dogsport says nothing about the quality of the dogs produced, especially when it is only a small percentage of people doing it
***On the contrary...the examples I used were KNPV and NVBK (NOT St. Huberts)...dare I say that over 90% of dogs in these programs are mixes??...That makes them a majority in these two long outstanding and demanding programs...My point was...that if this cross GSD/Mal was so incredible...There would be more of them...On one trip to Holland (just as an example)...out of 4 clubs and apprx. 100 dogs...10 were purebreds and I saw ONE GSD/MAL cross. I enquired from several individuals WHY there wasn't more of them...Their answer was that to get this type of a cross that is 'good...is very rare'...They expected a certain type of working temperament and ability from this cross and in most cases (not talking about the exceptions); they didn't get it. In fact they got some pretty negative and undesirable traits.
***Where do you see the similarity that would make a GSD and Mal 'pretty damn close'?
***My so called silly example was merely a statement from what others who have done these crosses got...Yes they did get dogs with drive, but they also ended up with undesirable traits in the same dog like HD--again this was only one example which was given to me by those who have done this type of breeding...So to me that does lend it some credibility.
>>First, when there are two genetic populations mixed the result will be fewer cases of genetic diseases as long as one population has less of the offending gene.
***Yes this is true...But all this means is that these genetic diseases won't show their 'ugly heads' in a given population...It says nothing about the carriers (hidden but still there)--and science tells us this as well.
>>Overall temperamental traits would still be similar and would be the focus of your selective process down the line.
***Yes one can certainly go in this direction with their breeding...but again I disagree with their temperaments being similar. I'll give you an example....It was brought to my attention not long ago by someone who has immense credibility in NA as a trainer and helper/decoy and breeder...That Germany for example is importing more and more Malinois from other countries...Why? Because their Breed Survey is very biased towards IPO and after a few generations...They are producing Malinois with GSD characteristics/temperament...This is not what they intended to do, nor desired...as the Malinois is NOT a GSD; nor should it 'behave' as one. They are attempting to bring back traits which make the breed what it is and what it's supposed to be. This is not only my opinion...This is the opinion of the majority of Malinois people.
>>Genetic full mouth grips are not going to be a different sets of genes in each breed. They're both dogs, those triats are going to be similar and the genetics that control them are also going to be similar.
***That doesn't mean that one is going to get that trait...There is much more to a dog that just one trait...And there are traits which are recessive, dominant, polygenic etc...it's not an exact science...My point was that along with 'good traits'...there are also 'bad traits' which can produce affected or carrier individuals...
>>Seeking outside genetics for working ability could be a good thing. . .not to mention the various benefits of hybrid vigor and having a broader gene pool to draw on.
***True...BUT all this is USELESS unless one uses stringent selection criteria...ie., culling, is very selective on the program(s) they use for the selection and promotion of their breeding stock...and in most cases, that's just not going to happen. Call is pessimism...it's still reality.
Anyways, hope I've elaborated or clarified some of my statements.
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#77791 - 07/05/05 02:27 AM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Brigita Brinac
Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 186
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>>Look at Du pottois. He lied on all his pedigrees so he would not be copied. He was punished for it, eventually, but he produced really nice dogs.
***Yes he probably had the MOST influence on the breed...However, he was known to cull entire litters...not occasionally...but frequently...He produced probably thousands of dogs in his breeding lifetime...but with QUANTITY, you're bound to produce a good number of great individuals Jeff. But what % were considered worthless and culled???? So until we know the actual numbers (which we never will)...all we can do is speculate that he was 'successful'...
For example...To me a higher measure of success is when a breeder produces 70 working pups out of 100, as opposed to one who has produced 300 out of 1,000. Just another way of looking at it.
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#77792 - 07/05/05 02:46 AM
Re: working GSDs: adding an outside influence
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Brigita Brinac
Registered: 12/28/01
Posts: 186
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Just one more thing Jeff...He didn't 'lie on all his pedigrees'....only certain ones...and it wasn't due to the fact that he was using GSD's...it was because he used NVBK Malinois and we know that many NVBK dogs were not FCI registerable due to the political rift between the two sanctions...And he also did have a hand written record of true pedigrees of his breedings which were passed along. And it wasn't because he didn't want to be copied...He did it for the working Malinois.
Many of the NVBK Malinois for those who aren't aware of this...WERE FCI registered and when the rift occurred...the KC revoked their registrations...BUT that didn't stop many like him from continuing to breed for workability and going to the non FCI affiliated organizations like the NVBK for their breeding stock...
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