Copyright 2001

Discussion with Manfred Heyne
Questions & Answers from October 1999
Copyright: Ellen Nickelsberg

These discussions are questions to Manfred Heyne and his answers to them as told to me during his stay here in October 1999.

Q. Actually, I'd like to learn his thoughts on running an HGH trial on only 20 sheep with no Beihund.

A. He said he sees no problem with running a HGH with 20 sheep and 1 dog if you have the right dog and the right handler. It would be different than with 200 sheep but he sees no reason not to do it.

Q. Just to clarify, did he differentiate between HGH and the C rules?

A. No. Manfred said that OBEDIENCE is the key to both. The difference would be primarily (as has been discussed many times before) the difference between working 20 sheep and 200 sheep.

Q. Does he feel that 20 head would act differently than 200?

A. There would be a difference working 20 and 200, of course. However, again, he emphasizes that if there is a problem controlling or moving the sheep, the problem is not the sheep, the problem is the with the dog or the shepherd -- sheep just need to be familiarized with the kind of work being done by the dog which does NOT mean that the sheep need to be "trained."

Q. Does he believe that a dog might need to fetch or work behind the stock?

A. He prefers to see the dog work the sides of the flock. BUT, if it is necessary for the dog to go behind the sheep for any reason like because the sheep do not move or because they refuse to go where they are supposed to go, then, yes, the dog MUST be sent behind the flock to get them going. BUT, THE DOG MUST BE UNDER CONTROL!! Again, obedience is the key. After the dog gets the sheep moving, then it should go back to working the sides again. Manfred emphasizes that the dog must not be allowed to go/work behind the flock on the road UNLESS it is told to do so by the shepherd -- in other words, the dog should not be allowed to work the sheep from behind on its own initiative but ONLY under the command and control of the shepherd.

Q. Does he do the two types of training (herding and schutzhund) separately? Does he go for the HGH first and then train and trial up through the SchH III?

A. No to both questions. Manfred does both herding & schutzhund together. He herds with his dogs 8 hours during the day everyday and then he goes to the schutzhund club 2 nights a week after herding.

Q. Does he use the staff in any way that might be construed as corrective? Does the staff make contact with the dog as in a correction?

A. Sometimes to both questions -- although any contact would be more a "reminder" and not "correction" -- the staff should never be used to punish the dog.

Q. If so, how does he avoid any conflict with that stick work and the decoy's stick use in schutzhund?

A. As Manfred explains it, the staff and the helper's stick are two completely different things to the dog. The staff = "No" to the dog. The staff can be held as neutral (lean on it while watching the sheep ie.) or it can be used to tell the dog "don't go there". The staff acts as a red light and the free hand acts as a green light in showing the dog where you want it to go. The staff should only be a substitute for the shepherd's voice to indicate to the dog where to go or what to do (extension of the hand as hand signals). The dog should have absolutely no fear of the staff. And, the dog should not at all confuse the shepherd's staff with the helper's stick -- for one thing the shepherd never holds or uses his staff the way a helper holds or uses his stick.

Q. Thanks....I've had the "stick" question asked so many times from schutzhund people who are interested in herding but are warned off by their ignorant schutzhund training leaders. I tell them the dog sees the use of the stick differently in each use and each field of training. Close?

A. Correct! The only time you might need to worry about it would be if you had a herding trainer (HGH) who uses the staff to beat the dog or to punish the dog. Unfortunately there are such trainers -- avoid them!

Q. Next question: Is it a must that the dog be started as a puppy or can an adult dog who has no exposure to stock be trained to work livestock?

A. Any dog can be started at any age without prior exposure to sheep IF the dog has the interest in sheep.

Q. When he chooses a puppy or young dog for himself out of a litter, are the characteristics the same for herder or schutzhund?

A. For a top herding dog and a top schutzhund dog he says, YES. The puppy test on the lamb should show a strong, intense, purposeful, solid (not hectic) grip and the puppy should approach the test with a wagging tail and a smile on it's face. He wants to emphasize that it is not a test to have an older dog on a line behind a fence to see how it reacts to sheep -- any dog would bark & lunge & act as if it would grip a sheep. If you want to test how much real metal the grown dog has, put it in a pen alone with a ram. He also wants to emphasize that in 50 years he has only made one error in selection from this puppy test -- all of his champions were selected this way.

Q. If there are differences, which field of work does he lean towards if he has to make a choice in some characteristics over others?

A. At the top level there are no differences in Manfred's opinion (experience).

Q. Does he choose only the dog that has balance between the two disciplines, or has he continued with a dog that seems better at one over another?

A. Herding is his profession and schutzhund is his hobby, therefore he said he always selects with his eye on herding.

BTW I had a hard time explaining your question to Manfred so he could understand what you were asking because TO HIM there is no difference between a good schutzhund dog and a good HGH dog -- his working standard for a HGH dog has not been lowered like the SV's. I had to explain to Manfred that here the HGH dog is considered different from the schutzhund dog -- ie. they are envisioned as 2 separate dogs.

Q. Like maybe too much grip on the sheep, but good bitework?

A. Manfred got a good laugh out of that question. If you read about his puppy test on the lamb on my web site, you will know that to Manfred the grip/the bite is one of the most important things his HGH dog must have. The way the puppy bites the lamb tells him EVERYTHING about the puppy he needs to know for both herding & schutzhund. The dog without a proper, full, hard bite on the top of the neck of a sheep will not have a good, full, hard bite for schutzhund either. When he koers his champions, he expects and demands a top SchHIII courage test performance from them -- he has NO respect for the dogs he sees minimally passing the continually lowered courage test bar that the SV now tolerates. I say -- the breed should thank those people who refuse to lower their standards because they remember the time when the GSD truly was a great working dog.

Q. I wonder if Fratz v. Teuchelwald and his littermate Frauke (HGH champ) are representative of Manfred's contention that there should be no difference between SchH and HGH dogs? Would you (or he) say this is more the exception or the norm today?

A. Manfred knows of the Teuchelwald lines but only from reading about them -- he has no 1st hand knowledge of any of those dogs. He does know the Haus Knufken lines better and said they were very well known for producing good HGH dogs -- a Haus Knufken dog was a Bundesleistungshuten champion in the late 1960's.

Manfred went on to explain that the HGH show title no longer has to have anything to do with herding. In order to enter a HGH conformation class, the owner only has to state that the dog has worked with a shepherd or is owned by a shepherd and that he *intends* to get a HGH title on the dog at some time in the future (many never do). Manfred even wrote a letter to the SV saying that he thought a dog entered in the HGH conformation class must have a HGH title in hand to be accepted -- the SV basically replied that it would never happen. The reason that the SV has no interest in requiring a HGH working title for a HGH conformation class is because it allows breeders to get a better show rating on their dog. In other words, it helps sell dogs and make more money for the SV.

Q. I wondered that if he had to choose, what characteristics would he allow to be less than 100% in his working dog? That is with the understanding there is no perfect dog.

A. All he could come up with was "Mit weniger Schoenheit kann ich leben" (transl. -- "I can live with less beauty"). And then I guess the answers changed to "What characteristics he MUST have in his working dogs"?

Manfred was quick to point out that there are 2 different kinds of dog that make up the HGH team and they must be selected for different characteristics:

For his Hauphund (the main dog who must do all the work -- the dog that is scored in trials -- his champions), the dog must be FLEISSIG (diligent, hard-working, purposeful); the dog must have ARBEITS FREUDE (joy of working -- smile and wagging tail when works); the dog must work because it WANTS to work and not because it MUST work; the dog must be SELBSTÄNDIG (independent & responsible -- able to work 100% on its own initiative); and, the dog must have MUT (courage, heart, spirit) enough to earn a SchHIII and to protect the shepherd & sheep if necessary.

For his Beihund (the helper dog, the dog that supports the Hauphund and works only on the man's side of the flock), the dog must be able to take commands willingly, the dog must be willing to do ONLY what the shepherd asks it to do and the dog must only do what it is told to do.

Both Hauphund and Beihund must NOT be sound sensitive (can't run away at thunder) and must have sound nerves. Anything not mentioned can be selected for with less intensity.

Q. And if he is getting the dog that he says he must have for the work, is it strictly his own bloodlines that produces it?

A. He bred all of his working dogs himself. The only dog he had that was not his breeding was his first dog, Erwin SchHIII, HGH (1st Bundesleistungshuten Champion in 1954). Erwin became his foundation sire -- all of his champions over the next 40 years trace back to him. The only dogs he buys or brings in are the females he uses for breeding.

My aside: Most importantly -- Manfred does not select dogs by their pedigrees (pieces of paper) or their "lines", he chooses his breeding stock by what he SEES in them -- how he sees them perform in everyday work. The HGH dog today has been divided in two by the SV into the HGH for appearance (to promote the GSD for sale -- the ones you see campaigned in trials) and the HGH for actual performance (the HGH you never see campaigned -- it actually works every day herding sheep).

Q. The GSD is a herding dog, or was designed to be. Do we really want to move away from that heritage, and design a dog's structure that most efficiently lends itself to dog sports?

A. Let me relate a little history here that may help to illustrate the irony of that question/statement since the SV has already moved far away from "that heritage"(herding).

The foundation stock of the GSD breed came from sheep herding dogs. The HGH was the 1st and only working title accepted by the SV in the beginning years. Take a look at your old GSD sieger photos from the early 1900s - not much movement to the extreme in angulation for quite awhile.

SchH and other working titles took hold around WWI for obvious reasons while pressures from New Zealand and Australia, population pressures in Germany and the increased use of synthetic fibers all eroded the sheep business after WWII. Shepherds were poor for the most part. Their dogs were the cheapest labor they had and so were bred out of necessity for herding instinct and ability - the dog largely determined the shepherd's profit or loss. To the shepherd, the dog's function was paramount and shepherd dogs were bred for their ability, not for their appearance. So, the sheep herding GSD remained close to the original standard in appearance into the 1970s - so much so that there is a separate conformation class for HGH (sheep herding) dogs. Since sheep herding dogs *had* to be bred for their ability (function), if changes in the appearance of the conformation/show GSD (ie. greater angulation, etc.) really improved the functioning ability of the sheep herding dog, wouldn't one think that the real working sheep herding dog would have become more like the show GSD in appearance? But they didn't.

By the 1970s the SV was pretty much run by the big show breeders. The shape of the GSD in conformation began to change more radically both in Germany and in the US - just look at photos from the 1960s. In the 1970s the SV encouraged shepherds who for the most part were poor and getting poorer to breed into the show lines to try to close the gap in looks between the conformation dog and the HGH (which because the HGH had its own conformation class at the Sieger show made the deviation from the old standard so much more obvious). Many shepherds did breed their herding dogs into the show lines because they were seduced by the money factor - the shepherds found that they could sell their puppies for quite a lot of money if they could boast "show dog in pedigree". Now the herding dog's value to the poor shepherd was more in its ability to produce puppies to subsidize the shepherd's dwindling income from sheep than in its true herding ability. Of course these shepherd puppies had to have the show credentials in their pedigrees and so they began to look more and more like the modern GSD. However, the herding ability of the old sheep herding GSD was gradually being eroded in the new sheep herding GSD -- this is not a criticism, it is just a fact born out of economics. The standard and point system of the HGH prufung were lowered by the SV in the 1980s in an effort to keep the herding trials alive -- after all herding was the foundation work of the breed. By this the SV was able to attract herding dogs of lesser ability -- a lot of the herding genetics was being diluted by breeding outside of the old working lines and into the show lines as far as the sheep herding dog was concerned.

Then the SV offered the ultimate insult to the SV shepherds who still took pride in their old herding lines and who still entered and supported what was left of the HGH trialing system. In 1985(?) in Memmingen the SV took prizes away from the German National Sheep Herding Competition (Bundesleistungshueten) and transferred them to the Sieger and Bundessieger Championships saying there was not enough interest in herding to warrant the prizes. The shepherds were so angry and insulted that virtually half of them threatened to boycott all future SV herding Championships which if carried out would have eliminated it. The SV reversed itself on the prize issue finally. Anyway, the bottom line is that now it is very difficult to find a "pure-play" sheep herding dog any more. The working shepherds have learned the money game and many breed their "competition" herding/show line dogs to sell but actually work their sheep with the old line herding GSDs or other dogs bred for the job.

The moral of the story is that before you buy the current conformation "form" line as being justified by the herding dog "function", be sure you understand which "herding" dog you are talking about. The real HGH may not be the campaigned HGH.

Q. I missed what his kennel name is.

A. Manfred's kennel name in Stammherde Ramholz.

Q. What bloodlines did he start with and develop these dogs from?

A. vd Sobrigauer Hohe -- an old sheep herding line -- only sheep herding.

Q. Since he has bred his own dogs and type of dog for so long with soundness and working ability as his primary guide, is there a specific "look" or "type" or size that has evolved? Would one recognize Manfred's dogs as a bloodline or type at a glance?

A. No.

Q. Is there an average size predominant?

A. Middle size and not "burley" (hard for me to translate). He says he seems to be seeing GSDs in Germany getting bigger and bigger and "heftier"(transl?). His dogs are all still middle size.

Q. Are there any problems that show up like hanging ears, missing teeth, coat aberrations, etc. that may have surface if only work was the criteria?

A. Manfred says he NEVER had problems with anything like that until he bred into the "show" lines (high lines) one time only in the late 70s. He bred to a high line bitch, Bari(sp?) v. Gruenenteufel, and from her he got some long coats and some over bites. After that he stopped breeding to high lines and will never do it again.

Manfred NEVER used a champion for breeding unless it koered. For example, he had a 3x Bundesleistungshuten champion (after the high lines were introduced to his line) that did not pass koer -- as excellent a working dog as he was, Manfred refused to use him for breeding. Manfred was never completely able to eliminate the coat factor or the occasional over-bite. Remember, Manfred only bred his champions (always males) -- although he occasionally would breed one of his females if he thought she was outstanding for his needs. He NEVER line bred back on his own lines. He always outcrossed -- always bringing in new genes. His comment on "insucht" (inbreeding and close line breeding) is that "you can keep what you have, but you cannot get anything better" -- ie. the puppies from close breedings will not be any better than the parents, but you have the chance to get puppies better than the parents if you outcross. This is why he always went out of his lines for breeding partners -- and before the "show" line attempt he had NO structural/physical/cosmetic problems! Manfred never bred to sell puppies and, so, never felt any pressure to breed into show lines after that 1st and only lesson.

NOTE: This 3x champion did not pass koer because it did not pass the courage test.

This is an example of how tough Manfred is on his own breeding standards. Let me explain. Manfred does not train his dogs to bite, etc. for the courage tests. He takes them to club and has them do it. The time he showed me what he did, he brought Nikko to club for the first time (I wrote this story in my 1st article on my web site). He had no lead on the dog and only held him by the collar. He told the helper to run out for the courage test. The helper did and Manfred gave Nikko the "Packen" command and let him go. Manfred didn't know what the dog would do since it had never been worked in schutzhund before. Most of the club members were chuckling in the background "there goes the shepherd's dog lets get ready for a laugh". Nikko not only took the sleeve hard and full, he knocked the helper flat but never let go of the sleeve. Suddenly there was silence in the background and then applause. That is what Manfred expects his dogs to do WITHOUT training.

Manfred could have spent time training his dog to pass the courage test to pass the korung, but he wouldn't. If the dog doesn't WANT to do that work, then the dog will not be used for breeding by Manfred. This is why it upsets him so much to watch the bars constantly get lowered in competitions and judging. If you want to breed better dogs, the bars should be raised. But, I guess if you only want to sell a fantasy, then lower the bars all you want and get what you have now with the BSP and the police championships parting company.

ADDITION 1:
I would also like to add something about Manfred's breeding credentials which I think is important in view of this discussion. Manfred is one of the top breeders of Merino Landschaf sheep in Germany (bred for wool, meat, lamb production and heartiness in all weather/seasons). He has bred them for breed and show as long as he has bred GSDs for herding. Manfred is the only man to ever win EVERY class in a single show for his breed for both male and female and for the group classes at the DLG, which is held once every 2 years in Germany and is the biggest and most important agricultural show in Germany.

The reason I mention this is to let you know that Manfred is very well versed in breeding for "form" and physical attributes in sheep as well as for working ability in dogs -- and he has consistently bred the BEST in both areas. To the best of my knowledge sheep are not bred for brains or trainability. Although, the current trend in AKC C course (fashioned to be a smaller version of the HGH) as well as in the HGH here, I'm told, is to develop and use only "trained" sheep for competition. But that's a whole other long subject. Who knows, maybe pretty soon GSD breeders will develop a breed of "trained" sheep to compensate for the lost herding ability in the dog.

ADDITION 2:
I want to add something to the "outcrossing" discussion that I learned from Manfred years ago. It is hard to explain briefly so bear with me. Manfred used for breeding ONLY his working competition champions that passed koer (they were also his every day working dogs -- he never had more than 2-4 dogs at one time). In the beginning of his breeding program in 1954, he was lucky to get 1 "right" puppy in a litter. By the time he stopped breeding in 1987 he was getting at least 3 "right" puppies in every litter. Remember that this was achieved by outcrossing. As Manfred explains: how he did it is that he wants his breeding dogs (koered male champions) to have the prepotency (maximum selected genes) for working ability and all the other characteristics he described earlier. He achieves this by STRICT selective breeding -- NO compromise on quality. Then, for a breeding partner (female) he only wants an "average" bitch not line bred or closely bred (preferably outcrossed also) whose main attribute is "that she can be wrapped around your little finger" (I can't do better than describe how he explains). He relies on his concentration of the good working genes selected for in his males, then, to come through in the puppies (no genetic *competition* from the bitch's genetics). In other words, he does not want his genetic selection in competition with someone else's (another line bred bitch) -- only wants his dog to be the prepotent one in the breeding. So, for working characteristics to be selected for, his breeding males MUST pass his rigorous tests -- they must work with joy EVERY day for 8 hours and want more, etc. as described earlier. The competitions are only for his ego -- this is why he will check dogs out in competitions but he will only select them after seeing them actually work for a living. As he said, the trend today is for shepherds to have their herding competition dogs that show off "style" well for the hour they have to perform in leistungs and then are either sold for big bucks or kept in the kennel -- and then to have their actual working dogs that herd sheep every day but are not "flashy" enough for the SV. Manfred looks at competitions to see if any real every day working dogs are competing and then he will check them out further. This year, for his standards -- his needs -- he saw only 1 good GSD at the Sheep Breeders Assn National Trial held once every 3 years in Germany and only 2 good GSDs in the SV National Herding Trial -- and the 1 in the Sheep Breeders Assn Trial was also 1 of the 2 in the SV National.

Q. Isn't this somewhat like the horse world's thinking that the stud is the most important factor in the breeding? I'm sure he is still selective in those bitches he chooses but it paints a unique picture of breeding the best GSDs. Though it also seems to involve massive ego, it is hard to argue when he is so incredibly right as demonstrated by the quality of his dogs.

A. I think you are reading a bit more into his breeding program than is really there -- at least as far as "ego" or "chauvinism" is concerned -- let me explain.

Manfred prefers working with males for several reasons but the main one is that males don't go through the hormone swings that the bitches do -- he finds males more consistent as workers because of this. Also, there is no pregnancy/whelping/mothering leave-of-absence with males. For a working shepherd keeping only a minimal number of dogs, these are important factors.

If Manfred preferred females for his main working dogs, his formula would be the same only the characteristics he breeds for would be selected for in his bitches instead of in his males, and what he looks for in an outside breeding male would probably be the same as he looks for in his outside breeding females. The only control he has over his breeding stock is in the dogs he selects and keeps for breeding and they HAPPEN to be working males. On occasion he has used his females for breeding if they have demonstrated all of the things he selects for.

The important thing about how Manfred breeds is not the "male/female" thing (ie. which sex carries his genes), it is that he does not want to breed his genetics to heavily linebred partners because the prepotency of the linebred dog could work against the genetics he is selecting for. It is easier to understand this idea if you think about selective breeding for looks. For example, my sister-in-law bred American show dogs years ago. They were so inbred it would make you cry. She *had* to outcross just to keep them alive -- she was getting dwarfs and health problems you never heard of then. She went to a well-known breeder who used only German lines. She asked the German-line breeder if the outcross would cause her to lose the "show look" she had achieved. The German-line breeder replied that my sister-in-law's dogs were so prepotent in their "show look" from inbreeding that they could *only* produce their "look" (remember the "look" was what had been selected for genetically). The more, or the longer, you strictly select for genetic characteristics the more you must be doubling up on more and more of those desired gene combinations, and, therefore, the greater the likelihood will be that you will pass those genes on in more complete combinations.

Q. In fact, some think success comes from using only an excellent bitch for breeding.

A. In his opinion (from observation), he thinks the "best bitch" idea (or myth perhaps) is promoted by big breeders because they can make more money selling puppies than they can from stud fees (he refers to Germany -- he knows nothing about what goes on here).

BTW he also strongly believes that he must have the best possible bitch for breeding, but having no genetic control of outside "lines" he puts his emphasis on his males. He tests bitches for their working ability and nerve and temperament, etc. before he decides to use them for breeding but IMO the most important thing the bitch must bring to the party is the "female" aspect and that means more willingness to "cooperate", to take commands, to be a partner with the leader as opposed to having to be the leader (you women's libbers may not like that description, but even women's lib gets old and worn out after a while) -- he wants in a bitch more of what he wants in a beihund (every litter will have a variety of individuals and he does not need all "power" puppies).

Q. I don´t know any reliable breeder who would dare saying that a stud dog is contributing more than 50% of the offspring characteristics.

A. I read this comment to Manfred and he said that he does NOT make that statement. Of course he knows each partner contributes 50%. His point was that he strives for PREPOTENCY in his breeding males.

Q. We can only guess those characteristics on the female part?

A. You can only "guess" about those characteristics that are *recessive* (hidden by the dominant genes). But you certainly *must* know what the bitch carries as dominant genes -- no guess work there. The question is: Does the bitch pass those dominant genes on? Or does she carry unwanted recessives behind her good dominant genes and pass on those unwanted recessives? Is she prepotent in those genes you want? Or is she prepotent in genes that you don't want?

Q. Since we only breed her once a year or two or three times in their reproducing part of life. A stud dog is usually bred (if it is a good stud dog) more than 6 times in a year. Stud dogs in Germany and Argentina have a yearly quota of 60-80 breedings. The fact is that a stud dog has a better chance at proving what his gene pool is willing and capable to transmit.

A. Manfred does not have to breed his males 60 times a lifetime much less 6 times a year with multiple partners to know what his dog will produce -- once or twice will do it. THAT is his point. KNOW THE *INDIVIDUAL* DOGS IN YOUR PEDIGREES! Then you have a better chance of knowing what you will get and where it comes from.

Q. The next alternative would be to travel around the world "checking on dogs" before deciding which one to use. Some of us have to work and do not have the time and money to do that. I guess Mr. Heyne would check those dogs in his area and disregard those in areas far from him.

A. Manfred never had much opportunity in his life to travel, even within Germany. Manfred developed his line of herding dogs without having to search the world for the right genes and without having to breed more than one litter every few years. Manfred developed his line without money, without studying books on genetics, without most of the things you people have and take for granted to help you get started in your breeding programs (from what I read). All Manfred had to start his breeding program with was a genuine love and respect for the GSD herding dog and a *clear* idea in his head of *exactly* what the GSD herding dog should be to perform at the highest level. Then, without any money, without any whining, without any dreams or desire to make a fortune off his dogs, Manfred took what he had (one dog given to him by his Schaefer Meister in 1948), escaped from East Germany in 1953 and began producing an outstanding line of GSD herding dogs that still exist and work today.

Manfred found what he needed simply by watching individual dogs wherever he happened to be -- THAT is what he is trying to get across. The genetics are there for anyone to find and to use -- BUT one MUST have a clear and focused idea in one's mind of EXACTLY what one wants to breed FIRST. Manfred's goal for his dogs was the same from day #1 as it is today which allowed him to CONSISTENTLY select for the genetics he wanted -- one cannot keep changing one's breeding goals based on what might sell today and expect to achieve the same success.

All Manfred is trying to get across is that if *he* can do what he did, so can anyone if they put their mind to it -- it didn't take money, it didn't take study -- it took a clear vision and a will to achieve. Period -- no luck, no nothing. Just clarity of purpose and will.

Q. What is Manfred's opinion on the discussion several weeks ago about the conformation people's statements that their version of the trotting dog is the best design for a herding dog and what role does structure play in his selection of dogs to do the work?

A. Manfred doesn't speak English and so cannot read the earlier discussion and I didn't pay attention to this one because I got tired of reading the same old stuff that comes up periodically on various lists. I gave him my best recollection of the gist of the discussion only. I read him your above question and his response was to roll back his eyes in amazement at the ridiculousness of that statement. To Manfred the form is not important -- he looks totally at what is inside the dog. I just asked him what he thinks of the conformation/show dog in Germany. He said that the conformation dog is good for the owners ego but it is not good for his working expectations.

Q. Does he take that into consideration at all?

A. No. He looks for structural soundness (hips, etc) but not for any particular "form/style" of GSD. To him form must follow function -- the dog's ability to perform all day, every day with joy, etc. is the ONLY important thing.

Q. Does he see structure playing a role in endurance or the longevity of his working dogs and if so what does he like?

A. To Manfred the old GSD structure is more practical -- trotting is not the be-all and end-all of the HGH. To Manfred the HGH must be an olympic athelete and not a beauty queen. He says the show look has its place but not necessarily in his line of work. He wants you to be sure that he does not knock the show dog for what it is.

Q. I was wondering what Manfred's thoughts are (or anyone familiar w/ herding lines) on how herding dogs should react to other unfamiliar dogs. Does he feel it's natural, or expected, for these lines to be apprehensive or aggressive in situations with unknown dogs? Is it desirable, undesirable, or not of concern as long as the dog works well within it's pack?

A. Manfred expects his dogs to interact with each other and to respond to other dogs with confidence when they meet and without stress, barking or fear. He had one very dog aggressive champion, but he was the exception. In Germany there are no situations that warrant a sheep herding dog to be aggressive toward other dogs.

Q. I was always taught that if the bitch is (one that can be rapped around your little finger) is probably not a good brood bitch?

A. No offense meant --Manfred's reaction to that statement was "ridiculous."

Q. But then again, the weaker bitch in a good litter can still throw equal to the better bitches in the litter, correct or false? I'm trying to learn this, ok?

A. Again, he said he doesn't care about "theory." (he means no offense to you -- he knows that this is what is being promoted.)

I ask the questioner for Manfred: "What is your idea of a dog "that can be wrapped around your little finger"? I think it might be different from what Manfred means by it, and if so, I will find out in his words how he means the term.

Questioner answers: "My idea of this is a bitch that is weak in self-confidence and assuredness."

Manfred answers: "NO." A dog that can be wrapped around your finger for Manfred MUST have self-confidence and sound nerves also.

Q. But from what I have read in the other posts, it seems that he is looking for willingness. Is this more correct?

A. Yes. He is looking more for a beihund type of dog. I described the beihund in an earlier post. Basically, what he means by "a dog that can be wrapped around your finger" is a dog that is happy to be with you and one that takes its joy in doing what you ask it to do -- one that does not need to perform independently to be happy.

The independent work and the "power" performance comes from the haupthund (the main dog) which is his male (explained why he uses male earlier). So what he looks for in a breeding partner to his "power" dog is the balance of the beihund. Ie. Haupthund = independent worker; and, Beihund = works on command primarily to help the Haupthund.

Q. I, too, thought he meant willingness. In fact I *hope* he means willingness, which I happen to find an absolutely wonderful quality in the German Shepherd Dog.

A. Yes. Willingness to take commands with joy and to be the "wind beneath the wings" of the Haupthund (main dog).

That concludes the discussion with Manfred Heyne on the Herders-L and the USA-GSD lists.