michael arghnian
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 11:32 AM
question about geting my dog fixed
i dident realy want to get my dog fixed yet but the new trainer i went to said i realy should he is 9 months old and i was hopeing that anyonne who has followed any of my other posts would reply to this from what i have read this will not make his problems go away
John Lister
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 11:40 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
http://leerburg.com/pdf/neutering.pdf

this helped me..
Melissa Thom
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 11:53 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Michael - What reasons did your trainer give? Do you feel they were qualified to make that suggestion?
michael arghnian
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 12:49 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
she said it would calm him down his main problem is fear agression she is from paw it forward she has a website and lists all her qualifactions on her site .i would also like to add he is a cane corso that is just a family pet I'm not going to be working the dog for any sports or anything like that
Melissa Thom
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 01:11 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
So from the website information

http://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/curriculum.asp

This is what she knows by classes she has taken? It's a study from home thing so there is no practical exam from what i can tell.

http://www.pawitforwardllc.com/about-me.html

I don't see any experience where she has trained a competition dog or any dogs for that matter so personally I would question her experience or expertise on matters extending beyond how to use a clicker properly.

I mean you've met this person and this is YOUR DOG. You can either take the advice you're given by this trainer or dismiss it. Once you neuter a dog you can't exactly take it back so what does your gut tell you to do?
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
08/27/2010 02:14 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
For cripes sake, this "trainer" has so little experience that they've list the books that they've read on their resume page - how sad is that?!? smiley for :mad:
I hope that you didn't actually spend money on this "wannabe" dog "trainer", you just pissed your cash away for nothing if you did.

I have said this many times in the past - a good trainer lists his titles, in various venues, for his experience.

When a trainer *doesn't* have any titles, they're forced to list their membership in various bogus organizations like the APDT, which are basically BS sites that impress pet owners that don't know any better.
I can't think of one serious trainer that would list something like the "Animal Behavior College" or the APDT, they'd be laughed out of business by anyone that had a clue.




Sonya Gilmore
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 02:44 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I have had two or three people phone me this month (must be train your PITA month!) and ask me if I was a certified trainer and with what organization. I said 'no and I don't do training'.'Nor do I put credance in certificates'. Somehow many people truely think APDT or whichever is going to mean something.


To the OPs question on neutering.
IMHO it will take some of the edge off of him and perhaps help him use his big head for thinking. Depending on his drive you may get a marked help. I have had dogs that didn't seem the least different and others that could stop and think before acting like a ninny.
Also a thought to me is...a dog that is 9 months old may act fearful at times and just be going through a phase that he will outgrow. Pressing his fear may make it worse before it gets better. I would think that working on his general obedience and redirecting him would do a great deal to helping him.

The single Cane I have worked with went through a huge fear stage at 8-10 months. Her trouble (for her owner) was that she would react to something on a walk (a blowing tarp) and jump back to the owner, jump on them and BITE their arms. So I took her for a week to see what she was doing. I did NOT think this dog was being AGGRESSIVE. Sure enough. She would react to something and race to me for a "mommy check". I had a tug with me and stuck it out for her to 'carry' til she calmed down. Couple days work and she learned that her security check with her mouth was HURTING her owner. Because this Cane has such a hard mouth she hurt.

I had a Bullmastiff bitch go through similar issues (which is how I thought of it with the Cane) but thankfully with a much softer mouth...so it was easier to see what was going on for the dog.....checking with the leader to feel safe.

Probably neither here nor there with your issue but since you have had a assortment of issues with this dog it seems like you need to get a valid assessment of the pair of you....perhaps from a variety of trainers/behaviorists. You need someone to see how he reacts and you react to him.
Melissa Thom
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 02:46 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Being a member of the BBB is like an education right? smiley for :crazy:

Maybe someone can suggest a group up in New York for him to work with?
Linda West
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 02:49 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Michael, did you have any luck with the schutzhund club?
michael arghnian
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 03:24 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I did not contact them yet I called tmyhe other lady from a recomandation I got from my post looking for a trainer in upstate ny albany area
michael arghnian
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 03:33 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
the other guy I saw was dan rossignol at www.dantrainsdogs.com but he seemed to have made my dog worse with a prong and hard corrections
Anne Jones
(Webboard User)
08/27/2010 06:17 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I still say contact the closest SchH club or DVG club in you area for training help, as I stated on the other thread you posted.

Neutering can help with some behavioral issues & not others. It is very unlikely that fear aggression is going to be changed by neutering, as it is a temperment flaw. It would be best to neuter a dog with fear aggression issues, as he is not a dog that should be breed, due to his temnperment. Nor is he a working candidate.
Bob Scott
(Moderator)
08/27/2010 10:26 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Other then (sometimes) reducing dog aggression I don't believe neutering does much of anything FOR a dog.
It can create any number of problems as the dog ages.
Aggression in females. Incontinence in females. Cancer in males.
The unaltered dog with issues is 99% on the owner. JMHO!
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/09/2010 09:54 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Hello Melissa,

I could not help but comment on this discussion seeing it involves me. As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist. It is extremely unprofessional of you to make a judgement call on a case study on aggression you know nothing about. Since you didn't ask ANY questions regarding this case let me bring you up to speed.. This very nice couple choose to purchase a Cane Corso puppy without knowing much about the breed. The Cane Corso is bred for protection and if the owner does not show 100% LEADERSHIP and does not properly socialize these dogs they WILL become aggressive and wary of strangers. What I saw was an extremely territorial fear based aggression case. With muzzle on, this dog clearly wants to kill someone. Owners admitting the dog is not properly socialized and owners admitting that "She" babyed this dog since they've had it, has created a monster. There is not one dog I work with that is unaltered that I do not recommend spay or neutering unless they are breeding. This is due to the over population of domestic dogs and cats on the planet and the fact that it may help curb the aggression. This aggression is 100% learned and owners were told that without changing they way they interact with him, nothing will change. There are many trainers who are not certified that extremely great trainers and many who are certified that are not. A track record speaks for itself. If at any time you'd like a bullet lists of more than 100 clients and testimonials, please email or call me directly. I'd be happy to talk to you. As with all people working with dogs, thank you for contributing to helping owners help their dogs. I in no way ever "knock" another trainers's techniques. I do see, that you spend plenty of time responding to posts, I'd encourage you to further your own education as well. Michael, if you'd like to continue, please give me a call. I'd be happy to continue with working with you. You are not the problem, your spouse is. Clear and to the point.
John Lister
(Webboard User)
09/09/2010 10:01 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/longtermhealtheffectsofspayneuterindogs.pdf

pretty good study..
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/09/2010 07:26 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Thank you for the great article. I found it interesting about spaying females and the elevated risk of spay incontinence. One of my female huskies has this and is on medicine to correct it. In a perfect world where owners took responsibility for preventing unwanted pregnancies, altering may not be such a big deal. But since there are millions and millions of unwanted pets due to lack of homes, spaying and neutering your pets I will always be in favor of. Thank you for the great information. Very informative.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/09/2010 08:02 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Hi Jeannie,

Welcome to the forum.

Complex issue with legitimate, passionate thoughts on both sides.I too have a spayed female who at 8 years of age has become incontinent (assumingly due to her being spayed) and is now on medication for control. I also have a two year old male GSD, also neutered - which is my greatest regret with him. Knowing what I know NOW about the health/development issues associated with neutering at a young age, I would definitely have either NOT neutered or at least waited until he was two years of age. I control my animals. Period. I live on 8 unfenced acres and they are never out of my sight - either leashed or with an ecollar. They are trained to the best of my ability which is an on-going process.

I honestly appreciate your view point and can understand where it is based. I do want to point out that the millions and millions of unwanted pets are due to and caused by irresponsible pet owners - not by an insufficient number of available homes. In spite of all the information available and all the vets pushing for premature sterilization, there is a segement of society which simply elects to not control their animals. If the PEOPLE controlled their pets, we would not be dealing with millions and millions of unwanted animals.

I support spaying/neutering after 2 years of age - to allow for the health and proper development of the animal.

I'm not trying to split hairs here - just explaining the problem as I see it... not a lack of houses - a lack of responsibility.

Again, welcome to the forum. I look forward to your input on a variety of topics. smiley for :)

Edited by Barbara Schuler (09/09/2010 08:10 PM)
Edit reason: clarification
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 09:55 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Thank you Barbara. I agree with you. What I mean by lack of homes IS lack of responsible owners as to why dogs end up in shelters. If the dog is in a shelter, it doesn't have a home. Mostly due to irresponsible owners. If there are too many dogs in shelters, dogs get euthanized due to lack of space. For every dog that is born, too many end up in shelters. One solution is build more shelters to house more unwanted pets. Another solution is to spay and neuter. Thanks for the great input.
Brian Villers
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 01:02 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I also believe in no spay or neuter until full maturity....I have tried to do my homeowork and read medical journals and speak to whomever I can on this issue, and basically I have decided to not neuter my male, but we spayed our small female after three heats (she is 20 months)....Our dogs are never out of our sight and never go to the dog park etc....there is basically, from what I have read, no medical benefit to neuter a male, other than to control population and there is a small (I mean very small) risk of cancer, which is equal to the complications that can arise from the actual surgery....females there is a tad more medical benefits....anyways, JMO and in no way am I an expert on this, just wanted to share what I learned when doing my own research. I can see why someone may want to neuter to slow down the aggression, but from what I learned 9 months is still too young for a Cane Corso, he is not done growing....
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 04:31 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
You are so sadly mistaken. Please visit www.apdt.com for the thousands of trainers who are members. Again, it amazes me the lack of professionalism on forum boards. The only thing I agree with you on is that you must prove yourself through working with many many dogs. Tens of thousands of trainers are members of the ADPT and they give a wealth of information for continuing education. Many of their speakers at their annual conference are top trainers including Ian Dunbar. What gives you the right to judge anyone. As far as tacky, I feel putting "testimonials" on a website is just that. Anyone can type a "testimonial". If at anytime you'd like to see one of hundreds that I have for helping aggression cases, let me know, they are actual emails. No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar whenever it saw a human.. this "monster" was created by a human. As I've said in the past, I do not knock other trainers, so thank you for contributing to helping owners help their dogs. There is never a shortage of good trainers.
Ross Rapoport
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 04:34 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar whenever it saw a human..


I'm confused. Are you saying that the E-Collar was abused in this particular situation?

Or are you saying that the E-Collar is itself abusive?
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 04:46 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I think at trainer should be able to teach owners not only positive reinforcement, but the proper use of a prong or E-collar. E-collars are sadly misused as an "easy" way out of training. I choose not to use them, there are alternative and better ways. If trainers choose to use them, I would hope it is with a purpose such as a good recall for a bird dog. I am saying it is abused, not abusive.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/10/2010 06:03 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
Hello Melissa,

I could not help but comment on this discussion seeing it involves me. As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist. It is extremely unprofessional of you to make a judgement call on a case study on aggression you know nothing about. Since you didn't ask ANY questions regarding this case let me bring you up to speed.. This very nice couple choose to purchase a Cane Corso puppy without knowing much about the breed. The Cane Corso is bred for protection and if the owner does not show 100% LEADERSHIP and does not properly socialize these dogs they WILL become aggressive and wary of strangers. What I saw was an extremely territorial fear based aggression case. With muzzle on, this dog clearly wants to kill someone. Owners admitting the dog is not properly socialized and owners admitting that "She" babyed this dog since they've had it, has created a monster. There is not one dog I work with that is unaltered that I do not recommend spay or neutering unless they are breeding. This is due to the over population of domestic dogs and cats on the planet and the fact that it may help curb the aggression. This aggression is 100% learned and owners were told that without changing they way they interact with him, nothing will change. There are many trainers who are not certified that extremely great trainers and many who are certified that are not. A track record speaks for itself. If at any time you'd like a bullet lists of more than 100 clients and testimonials, please email or call me directly. I'd be happy to talk to you. As with all people working with dogs, thank you for contributing to helping owners help their dogs. I in no way ever "knock" another trainers's techniques. I do see, that you spend plenty of time responding to posts, I'd encourage you to further your own education as well. Michael, if you'd like to continue, please give me a call. I'd be happy to continue with working with you. You are not the problem, your spouse is. Clear and to the point.



Whoa whoa, Jeannie - you're calling Melissa unprofessional when you have to list the books that you've read on your resume for experience?!? That's a immediate sign of a low level pet trainer, you're a "wannabe" compared to most of the trainers here on this forum.

Did you miss my statement on the first page of this thread?
Here, let me print it out again, and yes, I'm talking about *you*:


"For cripes sake, this "trainer" has so little experience that they've list the books that they've read on their resume page - how sad is that?!?
I hope that you didn't actually spend money on this "wannabe" dog "trainer", you just pissed your cash away for nothing if you did.

I have said this many times in the past - a good trainer lists his titles, in various venues, for his experience.

When a trainer *doesn't* have any titles, they're forced to list their membership in various bogus organizations like the APDT, which are basically BS sites that impress pet owners that don't know any better.
I can't think of one serious trainer that would list something like the "Animal Behavior College" or the APDT, they'd be laughed out of business by anyone that had a clue."




Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/10/2010 06:17 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
Again, it amazes me the lack of professionalism on forum boards.

Yes, me too - for instance when we have a trainer that is so inexperienced that they have to list the books that they read as experience, but they'll come here with an attitude.

 Quote: jeannie oakley
What gives you the right to judge anyone

The right? I would say experience gives us the right. I have 26 AKC UD titles, several TD and TDX tracking titles, 20+ SchH titles, and a few more in other dog sports. I was a national lvl vendor of serious PPDs.
And there are *many* trainers here with far more experience than you , so get off your high horse, you're a wannabe in our world.
By the way, my resume was so crowded with titles that I earned when I had a dog training business that oddly, I didn't have to list bogus stuff like reading books..... How about you?

 Quote: jeannie oakley
No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar.....

Sorry, right there you pronounced yourself a complete and utter fraud - no professional dog trainer is going to call an e-collar a "shock collar", *ever*.



Mara Jessup
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 06:37 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote:
There is not one dog I work with that is unaltered that I do not recommend spay or neutering unless they are breeding. This is due to the over population of domestic dogs and cats on the planet and the fact that it may help curb the aggression. This aggression is 100% learned and owners were told that without changing they way they interact with him, nothing will change.


If the agression is learned why do you think you can neuter it out of him? If the training/handling of this dog doesn't change then neutering is not going to make a really big difference.

 Quote:
As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist.


Doesn't mean she isn't one smiley for ;) and in reality anyone can type whatever they want in their profile. I could be a research chemist if I'd like.

I guess what is a bit puzzling to me is the fact that you come and start knocking people here (who you know nothing about and are making some big asumptions) but say they should absolutely respect your opinion without questioning it because you are certified (which is a pretty simple certification to get).

IMO, the proof is always in the pudding when it comes to dog training. If you want me to take your advice I need to first be impressed with your training skills and the performance of your personal dogs.




Elizabeth Anderson
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 07:05 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Lynne Barrows
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 07:23 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: ross rapoport
 Quote: jeannie oakley
No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar whenever it saw a human..


I'm confused. Are you saying that the E-Collar was abused in this particular situation?

Or are you saying that the E-Collar is itself abusive?

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=292041&Searchpage=1&Main=27201&Words=+michael+arghnian&topic=0&Search=true#Post292041
Here's the thread re the e-collar. Michael, call the numbers that Anne provided you with. Get some help for this dog and yourself before this dog ends up hurting someone. It will be the dog who pays the price, if you don't...

And in the meantime, educate yourself about pack structure, if you haven't.Here's a good place to start:
http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

You should be practicing NILIF with this dog, if you aren't already. If your girlfriend can't get on board with this, then prevent her from interacting with your dog.
Tanith Wheeler
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 07:23 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
IMHO - that of a trainer who does a lot of work with aggressive dogs. In the case of fear aggression.... one of the absolute worst things that you can do is neuter a male without seriously considering the individual situation - not just an oversimplified ideal.

The added testosterone, along with correct training, handling, equipment can make the difference between a controlled dog and an accident waiting to happen.
Lynne Barrows
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 07:31 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote:

http://www.pawitforwardllc.com/about-me.html

Jeannie, welcome. If you stick around here you will see that there are many experienced trainers here (not me, I'm just a pet owner!)who have a wealth of knowledge in dog training.

One thing I noticed from your site; you say that one of your beautiful husky's favorite toys is a laser light. Please do some research on this; you will find some very informative threads here about the detrimental effects that playing with a laser light can have on your dog.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 07:37 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: lynne barrows
 Quote: ross rapoport
 Quote: jeannie oakley
No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar whenever it saw a human..


I'm confused. Are you saying that the E-Collar was abused in this particular situation?

Or are you saying that the E-Collar is itself abusive?

http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=292041&Searchpage=1&Main=27201&Words=+michael+arghnian&topic=0&Search=true#Post292041
Here's the thread re the e-collar. Michael, call the numbers that Anne provided you with. Get some help for this dog and yourself before this dog ends up hurting someone. It will be the dog who pays the price, if you don't...

And in the meantime, educate yourself about pack structure, if you haven't.Here's a good place to start:
http://leerburg.com/pdf/packstructure.pdf

You should be practicing NILIF with this dog, if you aren't already. If your girlfriend can't get on board with this, then prevent her from interacting with your dog.


Lynn, thank you for posting these past links. There is a wealth of information here which Jeannie could benefit from, if she does indeed stick around.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/10/2010 08:10 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
No one seems to mention that this "dog" has been trained with a shock collar whenever it saw a human.. this "monster" was created by a human.


This is not quite accurate Jeannie... Please do a search on the OP's past posts and you will see this was discussed in length - at great concern among this forum's members. All of the previous posts on this particular dog and owner are available for your review.

Just my opinion, but if you need to refer to a client's dog as a monster instead of a "dog", this may be indicative that the case is beyond your experience level. There is no shame in that fact - unless you don't let the client know this up front.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 05:03 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Just the fact that you BLEW my first post apart tells me, no matter WHAT your credentials are, you have a sick sense of HIGH HORSE syndrome. Really, this board spends more times attacking others than actually helping owners. Yes (whoever wrote it), my dog loves the lazer light. I don't really care the "horrible" effects it may have. She's a dog who enjoys it....stop being so hung up on "WHAT CAN GO WRONG IF YOU....." and just enjoy your dogs. Will, you're not worth the argument, I don't waste my time trying to belittle other trainers. It goes to show just what type of "person", not trainer, you really are. Really sad Will,,really sad. You should be proud of your accomplishments, they look amazing... its your attitude towards people you don't even know. I wish I could have the opportunity to meet you, you'd see that you are so sadly mistaken. You said "A good trainer lists their his titles". Where is this in the "DOG TRAINING LAW BOOK"? Please, almighty one, keep enlightening us with your wisdom, but next time, pick a topic about dog training, not something that gives you a bigger ego. I'd be happy to discuss training techniques with you. You are a bitter person, and my advice to you is to look at your life, fix what makes you so bitter, you'll be a much happier person. Really sad, Will. Really.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 05:47 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Thank you Barbara. When I approached him (he was muzzled), he immediately changed from an aggressive lunge to bark fulled with panic followed by immediately pooping on the floor. I'd like to try more positive reinforcement training with him. Corrections are making it worse. He needs to learn to trust humans. This will take more time, but is a better way to help him. Without changing the ways owners interact with him, nothing will change. They seemed very willing to want to help this dog and I hope, regardless of whether they continue with me or someone else, that they succeed. He is indeed a beatiful Cane Corso. The first trainer they saw would have been my first choice to refer them to. I have encouraged them to get other opinions other than my own.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:51 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Jeannie, Your assessment of Will is as far off the mark from accurate as you could possibly be. He is highly respected on this forum and along with a very, very limited number of other members, knows more about dog aggression than all the remaining forum members combined.

For those of us who look to this forum for information and knowledge, having a few members whose experience so far surpasses ours and who are willing to share that knowledge with us is a huge benefit. I look to these folks to point out what we do wrong as well as what we do right, and to also point out what makes other trainers professional (or not) or other techniques appropriate or not. Someone with Will's experience and years of working so closely with aggressive dogs, in my opinion, is qualified to make that distinction.

While you may prefer to "live and let live" and never criticise another trainer's techniques, the fact remains that there are people who are qualified to handle very aggressive dogs and unfortunately, far, far too many trainers who are not. This forum is about learning - both the good and the bad - and in my opinion, for Will and the other truly qualified trainers to sit by and sing kumbiya (sp?) when a dangerous situation is being discussed would be grossly irresponsible.

For me to criticise your ability would be innappropriate due to my level of experience. That is not the case with Will.


Mara Jessup
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 07:39 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote:
Yes (whoever wrote it), my dog loves the lazer light. I don't really care the "horrible" effects it may have. She's a dog who enjoys it....stop being so hung up on "WHAT CAN GO WRONG IF YOU....." and just enjoy your dogs.


The is a good chance that playing with a laser pointer can cause OCD in a dog. Especially high energy dogs. A lady I know from another forum spent nearly a year getting her dog to stop chasing/looking for flecks of light after she'd introduced a laser pointer to her dog. And this is not at all an uncommon story.

Though you may not care if it could be harmful with your dog, it is doing a huge disservice to other people and their dogs advertising that it is okay on your website like that. Because laser pointers can have lasting negative affects on dogs.
Tammy Moore
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 07:58 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 08:29 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
It's the only thing you've said that's right so far Jeannie, "Without changing the ways owners interact with him, nothing will change."
Did you pick up that little tid bit from C.M.? Great insight.

I'm not even going to bother visiting your site.
Laser as a toy for a dog.....really?
Yeah great training tool keep up the good work Jeannie.
Ross Rapoport
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 08:45 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Jeannie = Charlatan

Michael = Gullible mark

/thread?
Tim Curtis
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 08:59 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 10:57 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
.... my dog loves the lazer light. I don't really care the "horrible" effects it may have.



Well, that wraps it up for me.

"I don't really care .... "


I logged on to respond to the initial comment by providing links to the many books and web sites that give warnings about playing with dogs with flashlights and (especially) laser lights, but I now see it wasn't lack of information that was the problem. smiley for :(

It was "I don't really care ... "

Joyce Salazar
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 11:01 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: connie sutherland
 Quote: jeannie oakley
.... my dog loves the lazer light. I don't really care the "horrible" effects it may have.



Well, that wraps it up for me.

"I don't really care .... "


I logged on to respond to the initial comment by providing links to the many books and web sites that give warnings about playing with dogs with flashlights and (especially) laser lights, but I now see it wasn't lack of information that was the problem. smiley for :(

It was "I don't really care ... "



So few words, that can say so much. I am very sad for this dog. smiley for :(
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 11:10 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: connie sutherland


It was "I don't really care ... "




What struck me when I read that comment was if a supposedly "professional" trainer doesn't care about the safety/health of her OWN dog - why would anyone trust their dog's health and safety to that person?

And this is what is so sad and frightening about the plethora of people posing as knowledgeable trainers - the vast majority of people looking for a trainer have no idea what distinguishes a good one or bad one. Which really takes us right back to why it IS so important to have all of the titles, etc... which Will stresses EVERY time this topic comes up. It isn't to be arrogant or an ego trip - it is to allow the consumer a reliable measure of how to select someone with the knowledge to train the dog and owner as well as someone who does CARE about the health of the dogs in their care.

Maybe if there is a book available for trainers to read on the dangers of laser lights... smiley for :whistle:
Kelly
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 11:27 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Personally, I would never waste my time with any "trainer" that utters the words "I don't care" in regard to ANY dog. How would I know that this attitude would not be applied to MY dog? I CARE.

But then, I have only learned from some unknown trainers like Ed Frawley, Cindy Rhodes, and Michael Ellis. Hey, what the heck do they know, right??

I worked for Ed and Cindy for over 7 years. I never heard those words come out of their mouths about any dog. EVER. And the great thing about them is, I know I never will hear those words. They care.

The vast majority of the people on this forum also care. Not all of us are trainers. Most of us just work with our own dogs and make sure they are well trained and healthy. We share our experiences, but for the hard core training questions we defer to the experts like Will.

I consider Will a good friend. He may have a gruff exterior, but he's got a heart of gold. He cares about the dogs and owners that have some problems. He tries to educate people new to dog ownership so that they don't end up hurting their dog by exposing it to a bad "trainer." Will has been around and has pretty much seen it all. I would take his advice over that of most others.

Just my opinion, of course.
Elizabeth Anderson
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 11:56 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: kelly
I consider Will a good friend. He may have a gruff exterior, but he's got a heart of gold. He cares about the dogs and owners that have some problems. He tries to educate people new to dog ownership so that they don't end up hurting their dog by exposing it to a bad "trainer." Will has been around and has pretty much seen it all. I would take his advice over that of most others.

Just my opinion, of course.

I would have to agree that he DOES have a lot of knowledge in most ALL situations. However I just about turned off any advice due to him being rude. I, as a new person would have no clue to how educated he was in any area. I would just assume him as someone that thinks a lot of himself. I know now after looking up other posts that he is VERY knowledgeable however a new person on here could really take his advice the wrong way because of the way it is put.
Most people come here to learn, as did I, and not to be called stupid by someone they don't know anything about.

Becca Fuentes
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 12:00 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Jeannie Oakley
Just the fact that you BLEW my first post apart tells me, no matter WHAT your credentials are, you have a sick sense of HIGH HORSE syndrome. Really, this board spends more times attacking others than actually helping owners.


I have to protest to this. I came to this board knowing slim to nil about dogs or how to train them. It is directly due to the articles on this site, the people on this forum and Ed's excellent videos that I was able to train my shelter dog to be a trusted and adored member of our family. Will is direct and emphatic, but he has never been high-handed or rude to anyone genuinely seeking help. If this is the only thread you've ever read on here, and you came in defensive and guns a-blazin', you certainly don't have the whole picture.

The one thing people here will not tolerate is bad advice about training dogs. Those of us who come to learn appreciate this immensely.
Linda West
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 12:05 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
http://www.aolhealth.com/2010/09/09/doctors-laser-pointers-pose-threat-to-eye-health/?icid=main%7Cmain%7Cdl3%7Csec3_lnk1%7C169784

Jeannie please read this. If it was not for this forum I would have had to give up both my dogs. Completely agree with Becca.
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 12:45 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: barbara schuler
.... Maybe if there is a book available for trainers to read on the dangers of laser lights... smiley for :whistle:



Here ya go. First book I pulled off the shelf: Handbook of Applied Dog
Behavior and Training, Volume 1: Adaptation and Learning
, By Steven R. Lindsay

http://leerburg.com/952.htm

Page 251:

" .... the origins of such compulsions ... often traced to .... games involving flashlights or laser pointers."


This three-volume work, twenty-five years in the making, has been hailed by experts in the field.

"The most valuable publication about dogs since Scott and Fuller's classic text, Genetics and the Social Behavior of the Dog, published in 1965," said V. L. Voith, the president of the American Vetirinary Society of Animal Behavior.

"The objective of giving a scientific account of all aspects of learning in dogs has been accomplished to a very high degree. ... No other comparable scientific texts are available," said A. Luescher, the director of the Animal Behavior Clinic at Purdue University's School of Veterinary Medicine.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 01:06 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Great Connie! Perhaps in the future it will also be listed on Jeannie's "Books I've Read" column. And I don't mean that in a mean spirited way - hopefully it will be read.
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 01:32 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: barbara schuler
.... Perhaps in the future it will also be listed on Jeannie's "Books I've Read" column. And I don't mean that in a mean spirited way - hopefully it will be read.


They are the "Bible" on my dog-book shelves.

I've always been grateful for Bob Scott's post urging that board members consider this great set of books --- and for his suggestion about "LB gift certificate hints" around holidays and birthdays. smiley for :grin:

Took me a while to acquire the set, but it was so worth it .... smiley for :cool:

And Volume III, Procedures and Protocols, is just amazing. In it, he uses the science to provide the "how to," from aggression to fears to housetraining to marker training .... well, there's no way to give even an overview here.

Anyway, it's getting O.T.

What I do hope is that readers here will come away with an idea of the potential damage that can accrue from "I don't care." I don't care what the real experts say -- if I want to do it, I'm doing it.

Whether it was meant in earnest or a defensive reaction (and I guess that a caption on the web site saying "Sheena is 4 yrs. old and her
favorite toy is the lazer light" pretty much makes it the former), I hope that the laser light "toy" stuff will be removed from the site.

Her dog, her decision smiley for :( ... but it's not OK to leave it there for unsuspecting owners who may have no idea of the inadvisability of using them as "toys."

JMO, of course.
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 01:32 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Well,
Has the matter of nuetering for aggression been resolved yet? At least for the op.

Too many dogs in the world is as good a reason as any I suppose, but for aggression? Towards humans? Learned aggression? Fear inducted aggression? Anybody think spaying will take care of any of this?
Or is anyone of the same mind as our newest best pro has suggested, it should just be done on general principle.
aimee pochron
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 01:41 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: randy allen
Well,
Has the matter of nuetering for aggression been resolved yet? At least for the op.

Too many dogs in the world is as good a reason as any I suppose, but for aggression? Towards humans? Learned aggression? Fear inducted aggression? Anybody think spaying will take care of any of this?
Or is anyone of the same mind as our newest best pro has suggested, it should just be done on general principle.


I'm no pro, just a dog owner. Have yet to see a decrease in aggression post altering in the many I've acquired, but this is the claim that the vet always makes. The only change in behaviors I have encountered is through marker/clicker, desens. work. etc. I've read more articles stating that an intact dog tends to be more mentally balanced. Training, training and more training....

Of course unwanted puppies is a bad thing...but a dog shouldn't be a-wandering anyhow.
Elizabeth Anderson
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 01:43 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: connie sutherland
I hope that the laser light "toy" stuff will be removed from the site.

Her dog, her decision smiley for :( ... but it's not OK to leave it there for unsuspecting owners who may have no idea of the inadvisability of using them as "toys."

I never knew it was bad for the eyes, course common sense says so...They use lasers to get rid of cancer.
(I have never used one) I suppose the same would be for cats?
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 01:46 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: elizabeth anderson
 Quote: connie sutherland
I hope that the laser light "toy" stuff will be removed from the site.

Her dog, her decision smiley for :( ... but it's not OK to leave it there for unsuspecting owners who may have no idea of the inadvisability of using them as "toys."

I never knew it was bad for the eyes, course common sense says so...They use lasers to get rid of cancer.
(I have never used one) I suppose the same would be for cats?


Because we're getting so off-topic into an irresponsible comment on the Paw it Forward web site( yes, the O.T. was largely my fault! smiley for :blush: ) , maybe we should start a new thread about this. smiley for ;)
http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295854&page=0#Post295854

Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 01:48 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: randy allen
Well,
Has the matter of nuetering for aggression been resolved yet? At least for the op.

Too many dogs in the world is as good a reason as any I suppose, but for aggression? Towards humans? Learned aggression? Fear inducted aggression? Anybody think spaying will take care of any of this?
Or is anyone of the same mind as our newest best pro has suggested, it should just be done on general principle.




Neutering ".... for aggression? Towards humans? Learned aggression? Fear inducted aggression? Anybody think spaying will take care of any of this?"

If it wasn't, I'm with you, Randy, that it needs to be.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/11/2010 02:12 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
Yes (whoever wrote it), my dog loves the lazer light. I don't really care the "horrible" effects it may have.


You know, that comment just makes you look more stupid in our eyes, if that's even possible.

If you don't care about possible injury to your dog, why would a client take a risk and have someone with your kind of attitude train their dog? If you don't care about your own dog, I shudder to think what you'll do or allow to someone elses dog.

I hope that any potential future client of Jeannie Oakley of Paw it Foward Dog Training LLC considers your statement here and the danger that you might pose to a dog.




steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 04:16 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Hey Jeannie, I may need your help here, I'm not sure. I read parts of your site about the leadership and stuff and discovered that I don't seem to follow any of your advice.

Now I'm really worried. Somehow my dogs listen to me. They do what I say. Sit, down, off, quiet,leave it, come. I throw things that they bring back. They obey and yet from what you say, they should be out of control, dominant (Lol) disrespectful,anxious,destructive, territorial, beasts. How the hell did this happen and would a laser help?
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:09 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Wow, Steve. How impressive. Really..... **insert mutley snicker**
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:23 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
No, not really. Get it Jeannie?
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:34 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Really Jeannie,
Is that all you have to say?

Come on gal get your game up if you want to hang with the big boys.
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:41 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Canine stability training??? Your dogs will teach my dogs??? Can they show him how to transition from the light he can never catch to something simpler, like maybe his own tail?
Ana Kozlowsky
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 06:52 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
If your dog is chewing your hands, you could also put a chewing deterrent on your hands and arms as well Anywhere else we could put it, just in case?

eta: ...When you are cooking or in the shower, try tethering your dog to a door know (sic) with a leash (appx. 4 feet), until you are done. Give him an appropriate chew toy in the meantime... ... for example the remaining 2 feet of the leash you just cut up to make the tether smiley for :D
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 07:13 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
So, your in the shower washing the bitter apple off your arms while realizing what a stupid idea that was. Your nervous, chewer has eaten the leash and destroyed 1/2 the house.

Now you figure out that tying him to the door was pretty dumb too, is it time to drive him nuts with the laser? A little alpha-messin with him?
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:00 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: ana kozlowsky
If your dog is chewing your hands, you could also put a chewing deterrent on your hands and arms as well Anywhere else we could put it, just in case?

eta: ...When you are cooking or in the shower, try tethering your dog to a door know (sic) with a leash (appx. 4 feet), until you are done. Give him an appropriate chew toy in the meantime... ... for example the remaining 2 feet of the leash you just cut up to make the tether smiley for :D


I am not going back to her site, but did it REALLY advise giving a chewing dog, which is tethered with 4' of a leash - 2' of LEASH as a chew toy??? Did she REALLY advise this???

Holy cow. I don't know what to say except... Yeah, Will, you have definitely met your match here... Whoo. Out of no where, a trainer who can put you in your place.

I want to revise what I said earlier about my experience level not being adequate to critique that of a "professional" trainer... Jeannie, even I could help you big time. That is pretty sad for a woman who is making her living advising innocent people on how to raise and train their dog. Any other skills you can fall back on by any chance?

Holy cow.

Full disclosure... I was just notified via a PM that the comment about tethering with a leash and giving a section of leash as a chew toy was said in jest and not actually found on Jeannie's website. My apologies.
Mara Jessup
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:18 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Nah, I think Ana was just puttin two and two together - ie, if you have a chewer, that chewer is very likely going to chew up whatever you use to tie them up with...

But it realy does recommend spraying yourself with bitter apple to keep your dog from biting you. Maybe all you Maligator folks should give this a try and report back to us how it works smiley for :D somehow I'm guessing that those dogs just might enjoy the extra flavor...
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:29 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
This is verbatim from the site. Your just missing the clever 2 foot of punchline.

 Quote:
When you are cooking or in the shower, try tethering your dog to a door know (sic) with a leash (appx. 4 feet), until you are done. Give him an appropriate chew toy in the meantime

Ana Kozlowsky
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:31 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
That would teach my husband the 'yuck' command, for sure.
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:33 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Ooooh, cooking OR in the shower. I read it as cooking in the shower ala Krammer.

Hmmm never mind it isn't so funny now.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:37 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Thanks Steve. I just didn't want to be putting words in her mouth which were not factual and then trashing it...

I'm perfectly happy trashing factual stuff however! smiley for :grin: What is 2' of leash among friends, anyway?

steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 09:51 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Hey Michael, what are you doing with this dog? Any obedience at all? Anything?
michael arghnian
(Webboard User)
09/11/2010 10:37 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
just want to put this out their i never used an ecollar to shock my dog every time he saw a person and was agressive twords them i only used it one time trying to get my dog not to bark at strangers why he was in the car and was told this was not the way to use the collar and stoped using it that same day
Melissa Thom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:43 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
I could not help but comment on this discussion seeing it involves me. As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist. It is extremely unprofessional of you to make a judgement call on a case study on aggression you know nothing about. Since you didn't ask ANY questions regarding this case let me bring you up to speed..


I feel like I'm late to this party. It's been a busy weekend around here but since I was addressed by name I thought I'd take a minute to answer back.

You're right. I'm not a behaviorist, or a "professional dog trainer". Truth be told I'm not much of a dog trainer nor do I claim to me, that is the main difference between you and I. There are far, FAR more talented individuals on this board in the realm of dog training than I am. But you see... for the context of this discussion that DOES NOT matter. This song isn't about me and my qualifications, it's about YOU and what makes YOU qualified to give advice about anything involving a client's plan for their dog.

In my opinion people in this world should have to justify their opinions either with experience or by citing a reputable source for that opinion. I do this with my doctor, my vet, my teachers, and yes, with people I seek dog advise from. So when the OP brought up the statement that the trainer told them to have their dog neutered and what we thought of it I asked the two most important questions "What reasons were given, and was the person qualified to give that advise?" No judgment at that point involved.

So the followup to that question brought up your name so I tried to find what made YOU qualified to supply advise related to dogs. So I checked your credentials and what you apparently had learned. I saw no coursework in animal behavior but I did see a lot related to rescue which is fine but not a qualification toward behavior modification or training, and a week long section in your school related to aggression. I never said even beyond that you weren't qualified to make that judgment, I just questioned your qualifications to make that judgment. There is a difference.

I do hope you stick around. Even if we disagree there is value to the discussion as we examine the thought.

Cheers y'all,

Melissa
~unemployed dog groomer and part time pooper scooper since 2005 LLC~
Linda West
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 06:23 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Michael,
this thread has been read and re-read by many people and I think that anyone who put their time into it understands that you only used the ecollar once and then stopped. I think that this is more about who Jeannie is and is not. How are things going? Have you been able to get in touch with the Schutzhund people?
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:00 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Wow, still on the lazer light? Wear your title proud Steve, wear it proud. For people with "titles" all you can come up with is the fact that my husky loves to chase a lazer light that is shined on a floor. Really?! Stability Training is the most successful training I offer, thanks for looking at my site again *wink*
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:16 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Aw play nice now.
If you think this thread is just about that stupid laser, which by the way is not only a very dangerous toy for the dog it is also the laziest of ways I can think of to give the dog exercise and entertainment it requires for health, if you think it's just the laser then you best reread the thread Jeannie.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:29 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:35 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: randy allen
Aw play nice now.
If you think this thread is just about that stupid laser, which by the way is not only a very dangerous toy for the dog it is also the laziest of ways I can think of to give the dog exercise and entertainment it requires for health, if you think it's just the laser then you best reread the thread Jeannie.


Now I am a lazy and it is the only exercise I give my dog *sigh* Really? Randy,,,how do you come up with these conclusions? My dogs get plenty of exercise and are very well balanced. But, thanks for making that assumption for a board so based of "facts". Good Job! I also exercise daily, skate, rollerblade with my dogs, camp and hike with them, and eat healthy. Lazy, not a chance. But again....thanks for the tidbit... Randy smiley for :)
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:39 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: melissa thom
 Quote: jeannie oakley
I could not help but comment on this discussion seeing it involves me. As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist. It is extremely unprofessional of you to make a judgement call on a case study on aggression you know nothing about. Since you didn't ask ANY questions regarding this case let me bring you up to speed..


I feel like I'm late to this party. It's been a busy weekend around here but since I was addressed by name I thought I'd take a minute to answer back.

You're right. I'm not a behaviorist, or a "professional dog trainer". Truth be told I'm not much of a dog trainer nor do I claim to me, that is the main difference between you and I. There are far, FAR more talented individuals on this board in the realm of dog training than I am. But you see... for the context of this discussion that DOES NOT matter. This song isn't about me and my qualifications, it's about YOU and what makes YOU qualified to give advice about anything involving a client's plan for their dog.

In my opinion people in this world should have to justify their opinions either with experience or by citing a reputable source for that opinion. I do this with my doctor, my vet, my teachers, and yes, with people I seek dog advise from. So when the OP brought up the statement that the trainer told them to have their dog neutered and what we thought of it I asked the two most important questions "What reasons were given, and was the person qualified to give that advise?" No judgment at that point involved.

So the followup to that question brought up your name so I tried to find what made YOU qualified to supply advise related to dogs. So I checked your credentials and what you apparently had learned. I saw no coursework in animal behavior but I did see a lot related to rescue which is fine but not a qualification toward behavior modification or training, and a week long section in your school related to aggression. I never said even beyond that you weren't qualified to make that judgment, I just questioned your qualifications to make that judgment. There is a difference.

I do hope you stick around. Even if we disagree there is value to the discussion as we examine the thought.

Cheers y'all,

Melissa
~unemployed dog groomer and part time pooper scooper since 2005 LLC~


Thank you Melissa,

Thank you for an adult response. Of the one post I thought would not, you did. My apologies to you.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:41 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Melissa,

Apparently my response didn't show. What I said was.. Thank you for an adult response to a post. You should like a great person and I appreciate your feedback. My apologies to you.
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:47 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
So the point of using a laser light is?
I don't really care how you play with your dog. If however you actually recomend the use of that nasty bit of technology for doggie play, you deserve to be called out on it.

Now to the op questions about neutering her dog. To refresh everyones memory here is where we started.
"i dident realy want to get my dog fixed yet but the new trainer i went to said i realy should he is 9 months old and i was hopeing that anyonne who has followed any of my other posts would reply to this from what i have read this will not make his problems go away." unquote

Now Jeannie would you care to refresh our memories on where you stand on this question?

Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 08:07 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: randy allen
So the point of using a laser light is?
I don't really care how you play with your dog. If however you actually recomend the use of that nasty bit of technology for doggie play, you deserve to be called out on it.

Now to the op questions about neutering her dog. To refresh everyones memory here is where we started.
"i dident realy want to get my dog fixed yet but the new trainer i went to said i realy should he is 9 months old and i was hopeing that anyonne who has followed any of my other posts would reply to this from what i have read this will not make his problems go away." unquote

Now Jeannie would you care to refresh our memories on where you stand on this question?

Sure Randy, I'd love to.

To answer your first question. My response came from a direct quote from the owner during our first initial session which was when asked why he isn't neutered the response was "he is so beautiful and would make great puppies". What Michael wrote was

"i dident realy want to get my dog fixed yet but the new trainer i went to said i realy should he is 9 months old and i was hopeing that anyonne who has followed any of my other posts would reply to this from what i have read this will not make his problems go away." What the board saw was me responding to his question about neutering as "neuter your dog to stop his aggression". That is not what I said... the response about neutering was due to the fact that the only reason he wasn't neutered was because "he'd make beautiful puppies". Therefore, I could not justify breeding this dog for that reason seeing there are too many dog in the world as it it.

To answer your other question: I do not see in one area that I have ever recommended a lazer light to anyone. It was a simple quotation under a picture that had nothing to do with training. A simple quote under a picture. If you read something else out of it, I can't see how. I have never recommended it. My dog seems to like it, she isn't OCD. She is actually much calmer than many huskies. She also loves to run, go on hikes, loves other dogs and people. We've had our dogs since 8 weeks old and they are all very well balanced. She, along with my other two, are sweet dogs. I love them, and God forbid, play with them. Does that help you? Does it?
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 08:42 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Get down off your high horse Jeannie, I may not belong to APDT but that doesn't mean I should be talked down to.
YOU, are still on the stupid laser light. Go back and reread my initial post this morning. I did not call you lazy I simply gave my opinion on the use of lasers, but more specificly my post was that this thread is not about the use of them. Now get off the damn laser!
Jeez, I'm beginning to think they're as dangerous for people as they are for dogs!

So your stance for nuetering the op dog was because he voiced the thought he might want to breed the dog?

How is it he seems feel it had to do with handling an aggression issue?
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 09:40 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Fact: I said I play with Sheena with a lazer light. Fact: You said it is one of the laziest ways to exercise your dog. Conclusion: You are calling ME lazy. Fact: My last response was because YOURS mentioned the light again! The only thing we agree is to let it go. It was YOU that started the sarcasm,I did not post to you FIRST, you did to ME so how is that my fault? I saw NOTHING about the lazer. That was all the "professional board". Also, where did I say anything to you about belonging to the APDT. Where? The last post about that was from someone else, again...another sarcastic remark that was in no way started by me. Please help me here?

To answer your last question, we did talk about neutering and aggression, but they were instructed to consult with their vet AND to research other opinions, I ENCOURAGED them to get other opinions. So how this got so "about me" is amazing! My concern was the fact that this dog could produce puppies and in no way are they ready for that. Nothing bad against them, just a total lack of education on this breed and a lack of control over this dog. A huge liability.
randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 10:17 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Yep, I opined that lasers are dangerous and a lazy way to interact with ones dog. If you want to take my opinion personally, shrug have it your own way. If the shoe fits......
How did this get to be so about you?
This got so about you because you decided to identify yourself as the trainer that gave the advice to the op on neutering, that's how.

All I'm trying to determine what was said by whom and the reasons for said advise.
So on the question of interest (aggression), you told him to go ask someone else?
Basicly washed your hands of the matter? That right?
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 12:00 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: michael arghnian
just want to put this out their i never used an ecollar to shock my dog every time he saw a person and was agressive twords them i only used it one time trying to get my dog not to bark at strangers why he was in the car and was told this was not the way to use the collar and stoped using it that same day


Michael, We KNOW that comment was not accurate. The moment you were advised that the ecollar was not being used properly for that situation you stopped immediately.

Jeannie, I've treated you with respect until I thought something you said was beyond comprehension. The moment I was told otherwise - I immediately revised my post and apologized. The "I don't mind trashing accurate" may have been a silly thing to say, but IF something is completely insane or innappropriate, I'm not above discussing that or being "flip" about it.

Unfortunately MICHAEL - your original post is getting lost in all this other mess which in my opinion is getting old. I recommend either another post be started with your original question dealt with seriously or those who want to continue the "did so did not" banter start a thread for that purpose.

None of are helping Michael with and he does have a situation which deserves serious attention.

Mod note: See http://leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=295993&page=0#Post295993


Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/12/2010 12:06 PM)
Edit reason: add note with link
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 12:02 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Good call Barbara.





See mod note in preceding post


Edited by Connie Sutherland (09/12/2010 12:07 PM)
Edit reason: add mod note
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 12:14 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: jeannie oakley
... There is not one dog I work with that is unaltered that I do not recommend spay or neutering unless they are breeding. This is due to the over population of domestic dogs and cats on the planet and the fact that it may help curb the aggression.

later:
 Quote: jeannie oakley
... we did talk about neutering and aggression, but they were instructed to consult with their vet ....




And I want to add one more time that a responsible site owner would not have a caption about using laser pointers as dog toys on her Paw it Forward site where she purports to be a behaviorist and trainer. If she was somehow unaware of the potential problem in the past, she would remove it when made aware rather than make comments like "I don't care."

So simple. So responsible. So ridiculous to become more and more flippant and sarcastic about.

JMO, of course.


steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 12:16 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
The only title I have is "Board User" The harsh reality though Jeannie, thats equal to all your College of, member of, and I read this, blah,blah........Successful huh? Lol. I guess so. It looks like you get a pretty good rate for teaching a dog to sit.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 12:53 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
. For people with "titles" all you can come up with is the fact that my husky loves to chase a lazer....

Why No, Jeannie, there's so much more for us to point out from your website, let's take a look, shall we?

On your "About me" page from the Paw It Forward Dog training, LLC" website we see:
You're the "honors graduate of the Animal behavior College"....oh boy, where to start. A correspondence course dog training school that is the laughing stock of professional trainers everywhere. When I ran my business, if I received a resume with ABC listed on it, the resume went straight to the trash, and that's true for any serious dog training business. ABC is a joke, and exists simply to give wannabes a piece of paper to show customers that don't know any better.
Why didn't you attend one of the real schools, like the Tom Rose School for Dog trainers or Triple Crown?

Next....you're "certified" dog trainer. Really? Who awarded you that certification? The ABC crowd? If it wasn't Tom Rose or Triple Crown it mean *nothing*, it's just a sheet of paper to impress pet owners that don't know any better. Once again, any legitimate dog trainer is going to laugh themselves silly when you present your "certification".

Gathering worthless sheets of paper seems to be a theme for you. But let's look at the type of paper work that *does* mean something in the dog trainers world, you know, like OB titles.
On close examination of your page I see zero, that's no titles listed. Hmmmmmmm...... not even an AKC CD, the absolute entry level obedience title that virtually any beginner could get. You can't even achieve the most elementary obedience title yet you feel qualified to *teach* obedience? Good thing that your students don't know any better, I guess.

Hmmm, you're listed as a "Mentor" trainer, now we've hit the big time! When I was starting off in dog training, my mentor had 10 OTCHs and 20ish UD titles - that man walked the walk and we all knew that he knew exactly what he was doing. So the people that you mentor, I'm sure that they can see that you're just too busy to earn any titles, right? I'll bet they brag on you something fierce when they get together with their fellow dog trainers.....

So, more on your "about me" page. I see that you have "Accredited Business, Better Business Bureau" listed under "Education" - is the BBB teaching classes now? Or is your actual dog training education so little that you feel the need to pad it with something that isn't education in any way, shape, or form?

Oh, and I see that you have the SIT/STAY FETCH listed as "continuing education". Which is it a download e-book. smiley for :blush:
As a hint,in the world of real dog trainers, the pros attend seminars given by top name dog trainers, which Leerburg holds yearly ( you might want to look into those ).
We work our dogs in front of our peers and we all learn with hands on training, which I'm pretty sure has more value than just reading a book.

And your "Books read" listing....yes, I know that I'm sounding like a broken record, but my God, that's a scream.
See, that part of your resume would be the place where a professional dog trainer would list their titles and accomplishments, but not you, we get treated to "books read". Wow, just wow.

Just as an FYI, my kennel helpers throughout the years had far better resumes than you, and they all knew that they were years away from calling themselves "professional" dog trainers.


Jeannie, you're new here, and we see your type all the time. An amateur dog trainer that gives someone crappy advice ( and if you charged him money to do that, you ought to be ashamed of yourself ) and tries to defend their lack of knowledge and experience with snarky remarks.

Please, go take your make- believe "certification" and go play with the rank beginners, where you belong.








Ross Rapoport
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:15 PM
RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Ed has written that the only way someone gets banned from LB was to disseminate bad dog training advice.

Can someone ban this clown already? The drama may be good for Google AdSense but little else.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:24 PM
RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Jeannie Oakley
You should be PURTY and PROUD of it. Thumbs Up Barbara, Thumbs up. Trash people, so professional. Please continue to trash....


Purty and proud no longer, you cut me to the quick. Definitely harshed me mellow.

smiley for :cry:
tracey holden
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:31 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Barbara please go back to 'purty and proud of it' smiley for :) you have a beautiful dog and she is 'purdy' and you are rightly proud!
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:37 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Come on Barbara. Just 1 I did this with Falcon is worth a whole lot more that any I read this in my correspondence course.
Kelly Byrd
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:41 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
smiley for :( Falcon should still be PURTY and PROUD of it!!!!
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:43 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
LCK and Joy would like to give you a hug, Jeannie.
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 01:43 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: steve strom
Just 1 I did this with Falcon is worth a whole lot more that any I read this in my correspondence course.




I like "I did this" too .... much better than "I read this in my correspondence course." smiley for :)
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:45 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
And Mr. Jerone too. I don't know about the dog prodigy though. He was a little hostile.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:45 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Wow Will. You know what... You win.... I have a very successful business, never claimed to be as experienced as you. No need to answer your questions, it just throws more fuel on your fire. So.. Will... you can scratch another stick figure off your bulletin board under "trainers who aren't as perfect as you" put a big "I WIN" sign there and be happy with yourself. I won't mention you, you don't mention me. I'm sure the forum will be happy with it. Go celebrate with your perfect self.
tracey holden
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:46 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Crikes, did I just call your boy a girl?? really sorry! when my now 24 year old son was a toddler he had a halo of blonde curls and massive blue eyes, and I was always put out when people told me what a beautiful GIRL I had! Soz smiley for :blush:
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 01:46 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Steve,
I'm writing my correspondence course classes as fast as I can!

Just as a note of interest, I was going to ask what ABC cost and then I looked:
http://www.animalbehaviorcollege.com/tuition.asp
$2915 to $3670!!! smiley for :o
They even have loan information on that page!

Wow, apply the "there's a sucker born every minute" phrase here. smiley for ;)





steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:47 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
How about some help for Michael on his new thread then Jeannie? You've seen his dog. Chime in.
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:50 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Holey **** !
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:53 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Guys... we are shattered right now.

To have our sig line made fun of in such a public, humiliating manner by a member new to the forum who has no understanding of our tragig past... no grasp of the level of pain and anquish we experienced upon realizing I had bought a SHOWLINE dog instead of a WORKING LINE dog, the humiliaton, the shame, the deep shame we endured. The fun poked at Falcon's beautiful red, henna-like coloration alone would have made a lesser member resign from the forum... head hung in shame.

But NO! We rose above the humiliation! We learned to LOVE Falcon's stunning red color and became, dare I say, PROUD of being different from all the other sable, black, sable and black, black and sable dogs on the forum!

We came so far. Only to be crushed by one cold, cruel, third-gradish comment.

Deep sigh. Such a sad tale (tail). smiley for :cry: smiley for :cry: smiley for :cry:
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:55 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
May I ask what you teach, Steve? Yes, I teach basic obedience classes, I train dogs to out of sight fencing, I help owners with problem behaviors which I've had lots of success with aggression cases. I board dogs, I work with a successful doggie daycare, I work with rescues, I help out in the shelters. Basic stuff Steve. Basic stuff. Let me repeat that 100 times. So, may I ask what you teach? I mean this without sarcasm. Thank you all for the website reviews. As much as you meant to be horribly mean, you've been a help. I will re-word some things and move things around. So any other issues please continue to say with the utmost sarcasm and critism and bashing. I will try to read something positive about it.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 01:55 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
Wow Will. You know what... You win.... I have a very successful business, never claimed to be as experienced as you. No need to answer your questions, it just throws more fuel on your fire. So.. Will... you can scratch another stick figure off your bulletin board under "trainers who aren't as perfect as you" put a big "I WIN" sign there and be happy with yourself. I won't mention you, you don't mention me. I'm sure the forum will be happy with it. Go celebrate with your perfect self.

Jeannie, you just don't get it - this has *nothing* to do about winning, or about me , that's just your wounded ego talking.
This is about protecting a poster here ( mike ) from the 3rd rate advice given by a substandard wannabe dog trainer ( that's you ) that gained her non-existent expertise through the mail!


And feel free not to mention me,Jeannie, but we'll be using you as an example of what to avoid for many years to come! smiley for :)







Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:57 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: tracey holden
Crikes, did I just call your boy a girl?? really sorry! when my now 24 year old son was a toddler he had a halo of blonde curls and massive blue eyes, and I was always put out when people told me what a beautiful GIRL I had! Soz smiley for :blush:


Only adds to our already heavy burden... If he had any and could have "gotten it up" - he wouldn't be able to after today. Ruff.
Kelly Byrd
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 01:59 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: barbara schuler

Only adds to our already heavy burden... If he had any and could have "gotten it up" - he wouldn't be able to after today. Ruff.



ROFL! Poor Falcon.... we love him cause he's Purty though!
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:06 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Through the mail? What is through the mail? And you too Will,, will be my example of a pompous angry man stuck on himself trainer who thinks he is better than ANYONE who is less experienced as he. You will be a prime example for years to come. No need to comment. I already said you win. Victory to you.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:08 PM
RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
This is about protecting a poster here ( mike ) from the 3rd rate advice given by a substandard wannabe dog trainer ( that's you ) that gained her non-existent expertise through the mail!



I take it back.. PLEASE comment on "through the mail", PLEASE! I need to hear this one.


Melissa Thom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:10 PM
RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: jeannie oakley
 Quote: melissa thom
 Quote: jeannie oakley
I could not help but comment on this discussion seeing it involves me. As I looked at your profile, I see nothing that states you are a dog trainer or behaviorist. It is extremely unprofessional of you to make a judgement call on a case study on aggression you know nothing about. Since you didn't ask ANY questions regarding this case let me bring you up to speed..


I feel like I'm late to this party. It's been a busy weekend around here but since I was addressed by name I thought I'd take a minute to answer back.

You're right. I'm not a behaviorist, or a "professional dog trainer". Truth be told I'm not much of a dog trainer nor do I claim to me, that is the main difference between you and I. There are far, FAR more talented individuals on this board in the realm of dog training than I am. But you see... for the context of this discussion that DOES NOT matter. This song isn't about me and my qualifications, it's about YOU and what makes YOU qualified to give advice about anything involving a client's plan for their dog.

In my opinion people in this world should have to justify their opinions either with experience or by citing a reputable source for that opinion. I do this with my doctor, my vet, my teachers, and yes, with people I seek dog advise from. So when the OP brought up the statement that the trainer told them to have their dog neutered and what we thought of it I asked the two most important questions "What reasons were given, and was the person qualified to give that advise?" No judgment at that point involved.

So the followup to that question brought up your name so I tried to find what made YOU qualified to supply advise related to dogs. So I checked your credentials and what you apparently had learned. I saw no coursework in animal behavior but I did see a lot related to rescue which is fine but not a qualification toward behavior modification or training, and a week long section in your school related to aggression. I never said even beyond that you weren't qualified to make that judgment, I just questioned your qualifications to make that judgment. There is a difference.

I do hope you stick around. Even if we disagree there is value to the discussion as we examine the thought.

Cheers y'all,

Melissa
~unemployed dog groomer and part time pooper scooper since 2005 LLC~


Thank you Melissa,

Thank you for an adult response. Of the one post I thought would not, you did. My apologies to you.


I really don't want an apology, this isn't a thread about me and my feelings. I want to know what makes you think you're qualified to give the advice you did. If there is something beyond what's on your webpage that would give your resume more clout than a random person with a library card and a correspondence course I'd love to hear it and the justification for neutering this dog.

Anyone, and I do mean anyone can put a shingle out and call themselves a dog trainer or behaviorist. Few have backgrounds that would actually qualify them to work with a dog with aggression issues or real temperament flares. Most pet trainers IMO are skilled enough for instructing on how clickers work and typical lure and reward training and that's about it.
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:16 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
I don't teach anything. I just own dogs, and like other forum members if there's something I've experienced in the years I've had dogs, I try to share it with other members.

What you're missing Jeannie is that what would make you a good trainer has nothing to do with your associations or that online course.Those are looked at as scams to suck in customers by a lot of us that know how uncomplicated what your teaching really is. Weigh in with some of the topics and share some experience.
tracey holden
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 02:17 PM
Re: RE: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
smiley for :D smiley for :D smiley for :D
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 02:27 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: jeannie oakley
Through the mail? What is through the mail? And you too Will,, will be my example of a pompous angry man stuck on himself trainer who thinks he is better than ANYONE who is less experienced as he. You will be a prime example for years to come. No need to comment. I already said you win. Victory to you.

"Through the mail?" Is ABC not a correspondence course, or did you attend classes from them on their campus? And yes, I know that you had to attend some hands on training with some local OB type whose quaility could be great or crappy. Judging from the advice that you give, I can guess which one it was.


And Jeannie, once again, mentioning me is just further evidence that you don't get it - you gave poor advice, and got called on it and your only answer to it was sarcasm and snarky comments. Of course, seeing what you had listed as your dog training experience, we understand that you don't really have any other answer.

I point out phonies when I see them, and if you think that makes me pompus and angry, well, have at it - I know that it's tough when someone points out the truth.
I've helped out several hundred folks here and I doubt that they would say that I think that I'm better than anyone with less experience - but the phonies, yeah, they're all mad at me. Sorry that you fall into that category, but your reaction is to be expected.



randy allen
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 03:07 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Jeannie Jeannie Jeannie,
What are you doing? You're ranting about style not substance.

Answer to the questions, not the form they're presented in.

For instantance, you've completely ignored my fairly direct questions and would rather keep on keeping on about laser pointers and how you use them or don't use them instead of addressing my questions.
So what gives? Would you rather talk about lasers? Is that it?
Mara Jessup
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 03:15 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Why do you assume that people are trying to be mean to you?

You came here and started calling people out because you didn't think they were qualified. So people started questioning your qualifications. But that isn't allowed?

I like hearing/seeing concrete evidence of a trainers results. If you've got a great method that works, you should be able to get out and pass some sort of standardized performance test.

I'm not a great trainer, but I've managed to pass some sort of performance test with the dogs I own. Well, the older 2 at least, still working on the youngster smiley for ;)

Sheesh, I've spent hundreds of hours reading. It's good, I acquire knowledge from it. But I don't truly learn it until I get out and work with my dogs. And then I know my training is working when I put it to the test and see if they pass it.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 03:20 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Mara Jessup
Why do you assume that people are trying to be mean to you?

You came here and started calling people out because you didn't think they were qualified. So people started questioning your qualifications. But that isn't allowed?

I like hearing/seeing concrete evidence of a trainers results. If you've got a great method that works, you should be able to get out and pass some sort of standardized performance test.

I'm not a great trainer, but I've managed to pass some sort of performance test with the dogs I own. Well, the older 2 at least, still working on the youngster smiley for ;)

Sheesh, I've spent hundreds of hours reading. It's good, I acquire knowledge from it. But I don't truly learn it until I get out and work with my dogs. And then I know my training is working when I put it to the test and see if they pass it.


Makes perfect sense to me... Good post.

CJ Barrett
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 04:46 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Wow, you guys sure are able to move forward quickly. Im still back on the I dont care, and wondering what life for that husky must be like.

Someone whose intentions are to instill their limited beliefs for their limited reasons, without any regard for potential harm or injury, not even open-minded enough to consider the possibility that their misinformed thought process and inexperience is going to cause serious damage, has me stopped dead in my tracks.

The fact that the folks responding are still trying to help this misinformed trainer, who is misguiding others to wrong, hazardous and potentially regretful conclusions, has raised my admiration bar to a much higher level.

You guys rock!

And Barbara, Falcon is one of the Purdiest dogs, in a completely masculine sense, that I have had the opportunity to admire. Hes a handsome boy that belongs to a wonderful trainer who has every right to be proud of his accomplishments. I, as well, think his appropriate signature title needs to be reinstated.
Kelly Byrd
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 06:42 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
YES Barbara! Perfect caption!!! We do envy you, Falcon! You've got a great momma!
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:02 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Okay guys... CJ and Kelly -

Behold, Falcon the Purty dog.

(He said to tell everyone thank you for the support on what could have been his darkest day...) smiley for :grin:
Marcia Blum
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:06 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Falcon is Purty. And I think we need some Care Bears.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:09 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Marcia Blum
Falcon is Purty. And I think we need some Care Bears.


I almost requested Care Bears AND the song Tammy Moore dedicated to Randy a few days ago, all wrapped up in a happy bow - THAT would either make you smile, laugh your butt off or get violently ill. Either way, it would take our minds to a happy place cause those of us who don't get violently ill will be making fun of those who do! How cool is that? smiley for :D

That was one great song however... Maybe Michael Wise can make those two things happen??
CJ Barrett
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:10 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Barbara Schuler
Behold, Falcon the Purty dog. smiley for :grin:

Ahhhh... that better. Good Boy. Lots of treats and cuddle time. This too shall quickly pass. Just a mere blip in a lifetime of envious admirers.
Connie Sutherland
(Moderator)
09/12/2010 07:13 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Barbara Schuler
.... That was one great song however... Maybe Michael Wise can make those two things happen??



On a wanket!

Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:15 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Connie Sutherland
 Quote: Barbara Schuler
.... That was one great song however... Maybe Michael Wise can make those two things happen??



On a wanket!



Do NOT make me the one who will be violently ill and laughed at by everyone else!!! smiley for :sick: smiley for :sick:
Marcia Blum
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:15 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote:

On a wanket!

you mean wafghan (remember, wanket is a dirty word)
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:18 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: CJ Barrett
 Quote: Barbara Schuler
Behold, Falcon the Purty dog. smiley for :grin:

Ahhhh... that better. Good Boy. Lots of treats and cuddle time. This too shall quickly pass. Just a mere blip in a lifetime of envious admirers.


Sniff... sniff. Thanks CJ. We are feeling so much better already.

Let's all just face it... you can't fix stupid and you can't hide such extraordinary beauty! What made me even consider it for a moment???

Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:22 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Marcia Blum
 Quote:

On a wanket!

you mean wafghan (remember, wanket is a dirty word)


CONNIE STARTED IT!!! I haven't slipped back since we changed the name... Jeesh... peer pressure is such an evil thing.

WAFGHAN... wafghan, wafghan. got it.
CJ Barrett
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:22 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Marcia Blum
 Quote:

On a wanket!

you mean wafghan (remember, wanket is a dirty word)


Yeah, now I'm confused, did I miss another email? I must admit though, the dirty word, for some reason, fits better. And I'd be okay with changing Barbara's output... oops I mean outlook for a bit.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:34 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: CJ Barrett
 Quote: Marcia Blum
 Quote:

On a wanket!

you mean wafghan (remember, wanket is a dirty word)


Yeah, now I'm confused, did I miss another email? I must admit though, the dirty word, for some reason, fits better. And I'd be okay with changing Barbara's output... oops I mean outlook for a bit.


I wan't confused until this post... smiley for :blush:
CJ Barrett
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 07:52 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: barbara schuler
 Quote: connie sutherland
 Quote: barbara schuler
.... That was one great song however... Maybe Michael Wise can make those two things happen??



On a wanket!



Do NOT make me the one who will be violently ill and laughed at by everyone else!!! smiley for :sick: smiley for :sick:


LOL... referring to this and the "Happiness" the W....... (whichever is appropriate) would give you.
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 08:06 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.
Konnie Hein
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 08:15 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Michael:
A lot of website hosting companies have tracking programs that allow you to track visits to your site and also how visitors got to your site (clicking links, google searches, etc.). For example, I can tell when somebody clicks on the link to my website under my sig pic here.

At least, that's one possibility for how she knew she was being talked about here.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 09:18 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Michael_Wise
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.


Rut roh.

I have a feeling that perhaps Michael told her he was also talking to the folks on Leerburg, but tht is just a guess.
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 09:43 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Michael_Wise
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.


I did not google myself. I was told by clients of mine who monitor and contribute to this board. I don't teach Schutzhund, or dogs for competitions. I am proud of all my accomplishments, have an excellent track record, and business has tripled since last year. I am not perfect. Each dog I work with is a learning experience, including this board. I found many helpful posts on other topics. My first post should have been worded differently, as it was taken by every expert the wrong way. Animal Behavior College was 9 stages of written curriculum and exams followed by 21 weeks of hands on experience with other trainers by working with shelter dogs, class settings and more. It was a year long process. I worked with shelter dogs years prior to that. Is it the top training school? No. Of course not. This post will be torn apart for some reason that has nothing to do with what it says, but I already expect that. If I didn't answer your question, please let me know.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 09:57 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Jeannie Oakley
 Quote: Michael_Wise
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.


I did not google myself. I was told by clients of mine who monitor and contribute to this board. I don't teach Schutzhund, or dogs for competitions. I am proud of all my accomplishments, have an excellent track record, and business has tripled since last year. I am not perfect. Each dog I work with is a learning experience, including this board. I found many helpful posts on other topics. My first post should have been worded differently, as it was taken by every expert the wrong way. Animal Behavior College was 9 stages of written curriculum and exams followed by 21 weeks of hands on experience with other trainers by working with shelter dogs, class settings and more. It was a year long process. I worked with shelter dogs years prior to that. Is it the top training school? No. Of course not. This post will be torn apart for some reason that has nothing to do with what it says, but I already expect that. If I didn't answer your question, please let me know.


Actually, I find it to be the most pleasant post you've made and makes you much more approachable. Admitting you wish you had worded your first post differently and that you are still learning, etc... you might have found some of our reactions to be different as well.
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 10:08 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
From one business owner to another.

People with more experience than you are generally better than you at what they do. It's just the nature of experience.

Not every customer will be satisfied. Others in the same occupation will point out flaws in your work. What you do with those critiques is your business.

If what you are doing, or advice you are giving, could harm 1 in whatever number of clients, you owe it to them to stop doing that thing or giving that advice.

Based on a majority of your post I've read, and I didn't read them all, I expect this to fall on deaf ears or be met with more sarcasm.

I don't have any idea why I wasted the time to type this.smiley for :grin: Did I just black out? What just happened?
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 10:13 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
I think the worst part is this negative attitude towards sarcasm. I sure hope that doesnt get any google results.
Barbara Schuler
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 10:16 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Michael_Wise
I don't have any idea why I wasted the time to type this.smiley for :grin: Did I just black out? What just happened?


Are you wrapped up in your wafghan again over-dosing on your bad ol' self?
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 10:17 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Barbara Schuler
 Quote: Jeannie Oakley
 Quote: Michael_Wise
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.


I agree. Jeannie, you sound like an entirely different person in that post. And I agree with Michael as well. Good posts.

I did not google myself. I was told by clients of mine who monitor and contribute to this board. I don't teach Schutzhund, or dogs for competitions. I am proud of all my accomplishments, have an excellent track record, and business has tripled since last year. I am not perfect. Each dog I work with is a learning experience, including this board. I found many helpful posts on other topics. My first post should have been worded differently, as it was taken by every expert the wrong way. Animal Behavior College was 9 stages of written curriculum and exams followed by 21 weeks of hands on experience with other trainers by working with shelter dogs, class settings and more. It was a year long process. I worked with shelter dogs years prior to that. Is it the top training school? No. Of course not. This post will be torn apart for some reason that has nothing to do with what it says, but I already expect that. If I didn't answer your question, please let me know.


Actually, I find it to be the most pleasant post you've made and makes you much more approachable. Admitting you wish you had worded your first post differently and that you are still learning, etc... you might have found some of our reactions to be different as well.
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 11:22 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: steve strom
I think the worst part is this negative attitude towards sarcasm. I sure hope that doesnt get any google results.
Its not so much sarcasm, but the sarcasm that is directed at the sarcasm's sarcasm.

You know how much I like a little sarcasm. It's just the sarcastic sarcasm that hurts so bad.
steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 11:31 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Hmmm, I think I'll move to innuendo.Maybe throw in a couple malapropisms.
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 11:34 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Katie, you didn't type anything.

Are you OK? Has someone taken you hostage and duct taped your hands behind your back and you are trying to get help?

Did you black out?
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/12/2010 11:36 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: steve strom
Hmmm, I think I'll move to innuendo.Maybe throw in a couple malapropisms.
Hang on just a minute, K. I've got to Google those words you just threw at me.

Speak slowly. I'm from Arkansaw.smiley for :grin:
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/13/2010 12:33 AM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: barbara schuler
 Quote: jeannie oakley
 Quote: michael_wise
No care bears yet.

I really just want to know what Jeannie wished to accomplish by posting here?

Where did you learn of this thread? Were you googling yourself?

Is the way you are carrying yourself on this forum what you wish for people to see when they google your name? Because this topic is coming up on the first page of a google search.


I did not google myself. I was told by clients of mine who monitor and contribute to this board. I don't teach Schutzhund, or dogs for competitions. I am proud of all my accomplishments, have an excellent track record, and business has tripled since last year. I am not perfect. Each dog I work with is a learning experience, including this board. I found many helpful posts on other topics. My first post should have been worded differently, as it was taken by every expert the wrong way. Animal Behavior College was 9 stages of written curriculum and exams followed by 21 weeks of hands on experience with other trainers by working with shelter dogs, class settings and more. It was a year long process. I worked with shelter dogs years prior to that. Is it the top training school? No. Of course not. This post will be torn apart for some reason that has nothing to do with what it says, but I already expect that. If I didn't answer your question, please let me know.


Actually, I find it to be the most pleasant post you've made and makes you much more approachable. Admitting you wish you had worded your first post differently and that you are still learning, etc... you might have found some of our reactions to be different as well.


Same thoughts here. While I will *never* understand why someone would spend their hard-earned cash on something like ABC when there are such good dog training schools available, a post such as Jeannie's last post ( that uses a civil tone ) won't get "torn apart".


phaedra rieff
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 01:35 AM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Michael_Wise
 Quote: steve strom
Hmmm, I think I'll move to innuendo.Maybe throw in a couple malapropisms.
Hang on just a minute, K. I've got to Google those words you just threw at me.



You're right, always better to google, I never like to assume when innuendo is on the table!
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 08:23 AM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Whoa! The words were there... I don't know what happened. I did copy what I posted (I always do in case of emergencies like these when my extra intelligent and wise posts don't show up :wink: )

But, it's basically what Barbara said anyways. Jeannie seemed like a totally different person in that post (for the better).
Jeannie Oakley
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 09:02 AM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/13/2010 02:16 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Jeannie,
I'm going to offer you some good advice, do with it what you will, but I mean it in the spirit of reconciliation- learn the "lingo" of being a professional dog trainer.

I'm talking about your use of the term "shock collar" early in the thread. Every professional dog trainer that I know would immediately correct a pet owner using that term ( and provide some badly needed education at that point ), for the honor grad of a dog training course ( and someone that calls themselves a certified professional dog trainer ) that just horrified me ( and every other trainer on this forum ) - did your training not stress something like this? This is one of the reasons that I rag on folks that attended the lower level schools, we see this behavior all the time from those graduates all the time, yet I've never seen it from a graduate from the "big two".

Honestly, you need to work on becoming part of the solution, not part of the problem - and if you're going to call yourself a professional, there are minimum standards that other dog trainers will judge you by, which you're not showing us ( and I'm sure that you don't really care what we think, but if we see it, your public may also, and that's bad for business ).

Again, I'm not trying to re-start the fight, I respect that you reached out with an olive branch and I don't want to mess that up, I'm just showing you some of the reasons that you were received here like you were.




steve strom
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 02:49 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
 Quote: Michael_Wise
 Quote: steve strom
Hmmm, I think I'll move to innuendo.Maybe throw in a couple malapropisms.
Hang on just a minute, K. I've got to Google those words you just threw at me.

Speak slowly. I'm from Arkansaw.smiley for :grin:


Here ya go Mike. Its pretty close to Arkansan,you could probably just spread the letters further apart if you need to, just to help slow it down.

http://www.write-out-loud.com/types-of-verbal-humor.html
Betty Waldron
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 03:03 PM
Re: question: getting my dog fixed/trainer advice
Somehow my mentor Will seems to have taking a few licks here. I'm shocked.

Mentor is a term that means a lot of different things to a lot of different people. For me Will is the best example of mentor I have seen.

8 or 9 years ago he agreed to help me when I showed up at a seminar with an 8 month old working line bitch that I didn't have a clue what to do with.

He has spent untold hours on the field with me an my dogs and has kicked my butt when it needed to be. He has never, never taken a penny, even when he earned his living from dogs.

He pretty much gave me a dog he had held back when Pepper was diagnosed with HD.

He has shared every success I have had and has shared every disappointment. He has always taken my calls, even the ones in the middle of the night when I had some kind of doggie emergency.

Lets say "only" 7 years.

I hope to hell that one day I give back 10 percent of what he gave me.

And others. I saw it every Saturday.

Jeannie, if you are ever in North Florida stop by one Saturday, we train most of them. I think you will find it interesting.



Betty Waldron
(Webboard User)
09/13/2010 03:11 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: michael arghnian
i dident realy want to get my dog fixed yet but the new trainer i went to said i realy should he is 9 months old and i was hopeing that anyonne who has followed any of my other posts would reply to this from what i have read this will not make his problems go away


I think you got some good advice and some good links from the thread earlier.

I am not really familiar with your breed but are they known to go through fear stages?

And if you obtained your dog through a breeder have you contacted him or her and asked their advice? A good breeder should know their lines and what is "normal" for that stage of development and what is not.

Just kind of throwing that out.

Tiffany Holtfreter
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 07:38 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
So is going to one of these schools a bad thing? Personally I did and I was not aware about all of these other places to learn until it was too late. I am not a "wannabe dog trainer", I may not be as experienced as most of you but thats partially why I am on this forum - to learn more.

This lady was way out of line to tell someone to do something they dont want to do, period!
Jessica Pedicord
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 08:22 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I got my start in "official" dog training (not just hunting dogs) at Petco, which has been (and still is) the hardest thing to overcome. I almost now wish I didn't do it because I'm pretty much a joke to other professionals. Its been a long embarrassing road. But really what I learned from it all is it doesn't matter where you get your start- just keep digging up info, learn from other trainers, be as involved and persistent as you can, and eventually peole will start taking you more seriously. A certificate sometimes means a whole lot of nothing. Being current and involved will help you more than anything. A good mentor can be priceless. I still don't really feel like a trainer because I'm still learning and I always will be. But building that foundation of experience takes so very long who knows if I'll ever get there. I'll settle for teaching puppy classes every now and then. And maybe someday there will be more.

But that's my personal experience in choosing the WRONG place to start.
Betty Waldron
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 09:44 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Did you learn things there Jessica? Even if it was only what you did not want to do in the future? If so, in my book all experience is good experience.........

To answer Tiffany's questions, it seems that some graduates of different schools have an inflated idea of what their skill level is. You do not know how many times someone has pulled up to a training field with "Certified Master Trainer" blazoned on their business cards and sometimes vehicle and when they got their dog out of the field it was pretty apparent how limited their skills were.

I remember one woman was telling us all about how she had completed the advance Police Canine course or something like that. When it came time for a little puppy type tug work I had to show her how to post her dog.

And this was with a dog that had completed the course with her and didn't really show what I would call drive for the tug. I don't think they ever got a sleeve out.

But they were both certified by this particular school......

And then when you hang around forums long enough you see them giving sometimes dangerous advice, touting their credentials. And you see people taking the advice and you shudder.










Lynne Barrows
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 09:59 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Betty Waldron

And then when you hang around forums long enough you see them giving sometimes dangerous advice, touting their credentials. And you see people taking the advice and you shudder.


Betty, as always, the voice of reason!

And, re the quote above, this is why I don't belong to any other forums. If someone posts something here that is detrimental to a dog's wellbeing or dangerous to a human, or just plain bad advice, there is no question that they will be called out for it.

And the other thing I find here is that as long as you are willing to learn from your mistakes (and I've made plenty of them along the way), people are pretty non-judgemental.
Tiffany Holtfreter
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 10:01 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: betty waldron
Did you learn things there Jessica? Even if it was only what you did not want to do in the future? If so, in my book all experience is good experience.........

To answer Tiffany's questions, it seems that some graduates of different schools have an inflated idea of what their skill level is. You do not know how many times someone has pulled up to a training field with "Certified Master Trainer" blazoned on their business cards and sometimes vehicle and when they got their dog out of the field it was pretty apparent how limited their skills were.


I also agree any experience is good experience.

I have always been careful to not throw my "credentials" out there because I know I am not the "master dog trainer" I would like to be. I have goals towards becoming that and to me thats all that matters. I try to listen more than I speak (my husband may think differently smiley for ;) ) but there is so much to learn.

I understand how many feel about the "certification" but I wish they would first see how they handle their dog and their professioanlism before saying it was a waste of time. The person is the trainer not the school and not the certification. However, I will agree that many get this little piece of paper and think they are better than Ceasar and its just silly.
Kiersten Lippman
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 10:16 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I've browsed a few trainer websites around my area and am a bit put-off when they post a picture of themselves posing with Ceasar (Millan). Personally, my dogs don't need Cesar or need to be whispered to - they need an advanced obediance, reponsible use of the e-collar trainer. I don't think the dogs are that unusual in that respect.

These types of trainers are very very rare. That's why Leerburg is such an incredible resource. Plus, you can get great advice free! No $100 consultation fee. Also, those of us who find Leerburg often have dogs with a bit higher drive, or higher activity needs than the average pet.

There is no problem with starting at the bottom (Petco). But like with most artistic or professional endeavors, finding a good mentor, or a good group to work with is priceless.

Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 10:24 AM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Kiersten Lippman
Personally, my dogs don't need.....to be whispered to
Oh, if they could talk, they'd disagree. Sweet nothings.....All dogs long to be whispered to.
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 01:09 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Michael_Wise
 Quote: Kiersten Lippman
Personally, my dogs don't need.....to be whispered to
Oh, if they could talk, they'd disagree. Sweet nothings.....All dogs long to be whispered to.


Oh yes, example:

http://i813.photobucket.com/albums/zz51/conansmama/20069_607985185957_30609288_35322605_7935489_n.jpg

Truth be told, I just wanted him to watch a movie with me. He's not very cuddly and wasn't that into it.
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 01:11 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Katie Finlay
Truth be told, I just wanted him to watch a movie with me. He's not very cuddly and wasn't that into it.
Funny. He called me later braggin' about it.
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 01:13 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
What?! Somebody's playing hard to get.


eta. heheh, I hope some newbie doesn't log on thinking we really are dog people...
Michael_Wise
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 01:15 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Katie Finlay
What?! Somebody's playing hard to get.


eta. heheh, I hope some newbie doesn't log on thinking we really are dog people...
What's not to believe about a dog calling me on the phone?
Katie Finlay
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 01:18 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Did he talk to Turbo? He's been begging me for a walky-dog so I don't have to try and hold his leash while we bike around the neighborhood. He wanted his opinion.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/14/2010 01:42 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: tiffany holtfret

I understand how many feel about the "certification" but I wish they would first see how they handle their dog and their professioanlism before saying it was a waste of time. The person is the trainer not the school and not the certification.

Tiffany,
At one time I thought that way - but remember that I've been training dogs for 40ish years now. And I've met several dozen ( probably hundreds ) of graduates from the various schools with "certifications" and the such, and I have yet to find a graduate of any school besides Tom Rose and Triple Crown with what I would call a decent skill set for training dogs.

If it was a one or two time thing, I'd still have an open mind. But when I've met dozens of graduates from ABC whom I would only trust to teach a beginners OB class to pet owners, I have to wonder why these people wasted their money.
And as Betty pointed out, they all had an incredibly inflated sense of what they thought that they knew, which is a recipe for disaster.

Professionalism isn't just hanging sheets of paper on the wall, it's knowing what you're doing - I pointed out in a previous post in this thread about a certified honor graduate from ABC calling an e-collar a shock collar. To see that in print from someone that is credentialed from a school makes me wonder what the h*ll they're getting taught there.

I'm sorry if I sound judgmental here, but I can only base my opinion on what I have experience firsthand. Folks that attend the lower level dog training schools start off immediately on the wrong foot if their goal is to become a professional dog trainer. Making a compromise so early in your career, for whatever reason, places an obstacle in your path that as far as I can see from my experience with those graduates, cannot be overcome - they will never rise to the top.





Tiffany Holtfreter
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 04:01 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: will rambeau
If it was a one or two time thing, I'd still have an open mind. But when I've met dozens of graduates from ABC whom I would only trust to teach a beginners OB class to pet owners, I have to wonder why these people wasted their money.
And as Betty pointed out, they all had an incredibly inflated sense of what they thought that they knew, which is a recipe for disaster.

I agree many of my "classmates" thought they knew everything and a few were actually from Petco/Petsmart.

 Quote: will rambeau
Professionalism isn't just hanging sheets of paper on the wall, it's knowing what you're doing - I pointed out in a previous post in this thread about a certified honor graduate from ABC calling an e-collar a shock collar. To see that in print from someone that is credentialed from a school makes me wonder what the h*ll they're getting taught there.

I also agree with the fact that professionalism isnt just a piece of paper on the wall. I agree it is in the work you do not what one test results are or a grade. I feel bad that I went to "the wrong" school but, unfortunately, I was not priveledged to knowing about all of the other schools and most are not even in my area.

 Quote: will rambeau
I'm sorry if I sound judgmental here, but I can only base my opinion on what I have experience firsthand. Folks that attend the lower level dog training schools start off immediately on the wrong foot if their goal is to become a professional dog trainer. Making a compromise so early in your career, for whatever reason, places an obstacle in your path that as far as I can see from my experience with those graduates, cannot be overcome - they will never rise to the top.

All I can say is go ahead and judge who you wish. I would like to ask that you do not place me in the group of certified trainers that you have previously met because I am different. I may have had the "wrong start" but I do want to learn more and will become a trainer like yourself and the many others on this forum. You may consider that a promise.
Tammy Moore
(Webboard User)
09/14/2010 08:03 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Linda West
(Webboard User)
09/15/2010 02:19 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Tammy,
I looked at both TR and TCA websites and the graduation rate at TCA is about 84%. From what I gather both TR and TCA will not allow people to graduate if they don't have what it takes. I may be wrong about this but that's my impression.
Tammy Moore
(Webboard User)
09/15/2010 08:08 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Lenka, Thank you for that information.
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
09/16/2010 05:25 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
Tammy, All the *graduates* of TR and TC that I've known had the skills to train dogs in any venue that I could think of.

That being said, the very worst scammers that I've encountered in the world of dog training claimed to be grads of TR but were found to have been drop-outs from the course.

The lesson there being that if someone claims to be a graduate from one of the big two dog training schools but seems to not know what they're talking about, call the school and check up on them ( we had this happen on the forum during this last year from a former poster, and there's an internet dog trainer with books and everything that claims to be a TR grad, but is not....and it shows....just two examples )


Tammy Moore
(Webboard User)
09/16/2010 07:05 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
 Quote: Will Rambeau

The lesson there being that if someone claims to be a graduate from one of the big two dog training schools but seems to not know what they're talking about, call the school and check up on them ( we had this happen on the forum during this last year from a former poster, and there's an internet dog trainer with books and everything that claims to be a TR grad, but is not....and it shows....just two examples )








Good point - I am sure there are trainers, scammers, which misrepresent their qualifications. The prodding would be useful tool for those hiring a trainer, and a benefit for the training schools they claim to represent.
Tiffany Holtfreter
(Webboard User)
09/16/2010 07:42 PM
Re: question about geting my dog fixed
I would like to say I apologize for siding ABC. Will you are correct and they are not the greatest school for dog knowledge. I will be sure to double check my advice before ever giving it.