**DONOTDELETE**
(Webboard User)
04/27/2002 11:25 AM
Mal vs GSD
In terms of working ability, what are the disadvantages of owning a Mal versus a GSD? I guess my question really is: If the Mal is such an outstanding working dog, why do many working dog enthusiast still prefer the GSD. I have been told by some people in my Schutzhund club that in general the Mal is not hard enough, Mals have poor defense, Mals track poorly etc...
Michael Taylor Rivers
(Webboard User)
04/27/2002 01:33 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
In my view the GSD is more popular because it has been around for so long. Many Mals that were sent over a decade ago from Europe were nothing more then wash outs from some European Dog sport. These doga were either nervy, and had very poor temperments, high prey and bad nerves, no prey, or were handler aggresive. This was what for the most part was sent over.
Today we are seeing a higher quality Mal that is really a super working dog. Time brings education. The myth that Mals can't track it really is the people that handle them don't know how to train them, one only has to look world-wide at schutzhund tracking scores, the Mals are scoring V's all the time. For the most part Mals do everything fast. Thier nerves are diffrent then most GSD's. Not to say there are some that are not good trackers, but the same can be said for the GSD.
To say one is better then the next is unfair. THere are more Mals though that have the traits that are needed to work world-wide then GSD's. This has been dissussed on another topic not too long ago. At the end of the day though unless we preserve the working abilty in the GSD it will be fair in the future to say the Mals. are as a breed a better working dog.
Josh Lewis 2
(Webboard User)
04/27/2002 10:29 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Hi all. I think this is a no win argument. While I myself am a Mal person 110%, most of the dogs I train and Depts I work with have GSDs. Many are first time handlers and SOME Mals are too much dog, hell, some GSDs are too much dog as well. I think if you pick the correct dog for the job, there is little difference in ability. Yes, there are some things a Mal will do that many GSDs can't, but the same is true in the opposite. For many, training a Mal is not something they understand, thus their ideas and style clash with the breed. Many times this happens with a good GSD as well. many times it's trainers who "I've done it this way for 30 years" are the ones who hate the Mals. They also pride thmeselves on getting handlers bit by their own dogs in handler courses as well for some stupid reason.

I think on the whole it is easier to find a higher number of Mals within the breed to work as they are not as diversified or have the $ behind them as many GSDs do. However, there are TONS of Sh#@ Mals that shouldn't waste space in a dog crate as well. I think it has little to do with breed as it does choosing/selecting the right dog and training it the right way from the start.
Kevin Hier
(Webboard User)
01/08/2003 10:16 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
i too prefer Mals, but its hard to find a mal that is as environmentally sound as a good GSD. The GSD's (for the most part) just have stronger nerves and tend to be more calm and confident in the work. But as i said, i still love Mals and them myself, you can't beat the intensity
Joe Noble
(Webboard User)
01/08/2003 11:09 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
As posted earlier, the Malinois seems to be a little more "nervy" than the gsd. The Malinois I have seen work are very high strung for the most part and in some cases that trait would not be desirable.

For instance, a family dog that also serves a protection role, it is just hard to picture a very high drive Malinois in the home with kids, it would seem the dog would destroy the house?

Where I think with the gsd there is more balance, you can have a dog that will do the work but can also be a "house dog" and relax when he's in the house.

One other point to mention which might be moot anyway, I have heard that in some cases Malinois especially females are almost too light to stop a pumped up drug crazed felon. They can be "flung off" easier then a heavier Shephard. Or a Rott for that matter. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Kevin Hier
(Webboard User)
01/08/2003 05:30 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
dont count the small malinois out. even though they are small, if you watch many of the hardest hitting dogs competitions, who usually wins? Mlainois (obviously not all the time). what big rottie is likely to scale an 8 ft. wall to get a bite? i've seen 60 pounds mals that bite harder than 100 pound rotties.
Joe Noble
(Webboard User)
01/08/2003 05:59 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Kevin wrote: " i've seen 60 pounds mals that bite harder than 100 pound rotties."

I'm not going to get into what dog bites harder but I can tell you that bite pressure will NOT be greater from a 60 pound mal compared to a 100 pound Rott unless the Rottweiler is sick or afraid to take the bite.
Brad Stout
(Webboard User)
01/08/2003 07:40 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
I own a Mal female and a male German Shepherd. I really enjoy my female Mal. She is great to be around. In the work she is fast to the bite. She takes full and hard bites. She tracks nice, and her obed is nice. She is more handler sensitive. My Shepherd he has very nice bitework just as full grips maybe harder due to his larger size. Tracking nice, obed is more up then the Mal which I think is unusual, I think this is due to her handler sensitivity. I feel both breeds are fun to be around, just need to research the bloodlines for what type of dog you want.
Robert VanCamp
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 01:14 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
My brother lives with mals in the house, no problems, they don't destroy anything. Good training and good daily exercise.

His male is as hyper as any dog I've ever seen alive. They still get along.
chris jones
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 02:00 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
The quality of Mals been bred around the world is getting better and better while the quality of GSD's are getting worse.
GSD's cannot compete with Mals at Ring sports, KNPV and even now top level Schutzhund and IPO. Last year at the FCI all breeds the top five dogs were Mals. 9 of the top 11 were Mals. Mals have won the all breeds for the last 5 years. What does this prove? Mal breeders are deff improving the breed. I think the programs such as Ring and KNPV are helping to improve the dogs as well.
I think it was Kevin S. that said the German Police breeding program is putting more Mals on the street per litter than they were getting from their GSD's.
Things are deff going the right way for the Mal. Im not sure this can be said for the GSD.
Robert VanCamp
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 05:15 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Comparing different breeds in different sports isn't telling of ability.

The reason Malinois dominate those Ring sports and KNPV is because that is the breed that almost all of the top trainers use. If all the best GSDs from the BSP or WUSV all of a sudden switched to Ring sports, would the Mal still dominate? I'm not so sure. . .

If 50% of the dogs in KNPV were GSDs and the other 50% were Malinois. . .AND 50% of the best trainers were training GSDs and the other 50% Mals. If that were the case and Mals still rocked? Then you would have me convinced.

What can't be argued is that the influences of sport and show breeding are negatively impacting the GSD as a working breed. But there is still a hard core of working GSD breeders. Things will get better as the working lines become more popular and the show lines are systematically steralized in my plot to . . .wait. . .maybe I should't talk about that on an open board. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />
chris jones
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 06:39 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
The KNPV trainers I have spoken to in Holland laugh at the GSD (Note, I have 4 GSD'S) when you ask about them in KNPV. The comment is always "People only title GSD's in KNPV to sell for more money".
Even the Czech police are using Malinois now.
I guess people like Kevin see far more Malinois and GSD's come through to comment far better on how each breed compare than I can.
I wish you well your plan....it's a good plan.
Show dogs are bad m'kay.
Juan Lopes
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 06:44 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Well, the GSD nowadays, can't even compete on their own game(Schutzhund) against the Mals, let alone compete in other sports. I am a GSD person and I think that the last thing the breed needs is excuses. Instead we should all change the way we look and breed our dogs in order to be competitive again. There are a lot of top trainers doing these other sports with GSD but there aren't dogs in the same level and abundance as Malinois.
J. Lopes
Robert VanCamp
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 07:07 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
GSDs can't even compete in their own sport? How exactly do you come up with that statement?
Deanna Thompson
(Moderator)
01/09/2003 07:09 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Wow, we are both on the same wavelength. I was just thinking the same thing.

A few Mals at the national level doesn't mean they dominate the sport...
Robert VanCamp
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 07:23 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
great minds?
Howard Young
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 07:47 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
I've been to plenty of police k-9 seminars where we the GSD folks were the minority. I'm not anti mal but do have a preference.

Never felt the need to lower my head because our GSD's didn't measure up especially when it came to control. This isn't to say that the mals can't be controlled. However, there are a bunch out there that aren't being controlled. The average trainer hasn't figured out how to do it.

On a side note IMO many people grossly overestimate what their dog can do in a real situation. I've always felt that we had manstoppers and for the most part we do. However, there's always someone that rises to the occasion and rendors the dog ineffective.

I know that most mals hit like a freight train. I've caught them and have been knocked in the dirt plenty but a sixty pound dog is still a sixty pound dog after it has flown through the air. I guess I've felt that I've needed to stack the deck in our favor.
Kevin Hier
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 09:45 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
disregard my last post, i meant to write that under another heading. sorry.
Dennis Hasley
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 09:57 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Having worked and trained both breeds I can say the conversation between the breeds is one of preference. Many Mals do a great job in a working environment and home generally speaking. In fact, one very good dog in which I was the training instructor for and is still working in a correctional facility is not only a Mal but also a female. This dog would have placed first in a regional certification a few years back if not for decoy error (decoy did a bark and hold and not a run away so the dog doing her job did not bite) and even as it was placed third over all ant this was her first trial.

This dog was selected for her drives and temperament that would fit my training methods and style better then the rest.

Based on my experience about general statements of the breeds, the difference is discerning vs. reaction. Mals tend to have less tolerance for mistakes in training and other mishaps and still be considered god. GSD will be more discerning about mishaps and recover faster from handler errors.

If a 3 year old falls on this Mal I am working with I expect the mal to react defensively before it realizes what it is doing and how it was biting. At the same time my GSD probably would just get up and move away from the child.

With that said, you need to judge the dog on the individual and the job you want him to do and not on the breed.

As a breed I like the GSD the best because he may not be the best breed at any ONE job he is the second best breed for EVERY job.
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Laura Sanborn
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 11:34 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
 Quote:
Originally posted by chris jones:
GSD's cannot compete with Mals at Ring sports, KNPV and even now top level Schutzhund and IPO. Last year at the FCI all breeds the top five dogs were Mals. 9 of the top 11 were Mals. Mals have won the all breeds for the last 5 years. What does this prove?
Most of the top sport GSDs compete in GSD breed club sponsored SchH, which are considered the most prestigious dogsport events to those in the GSD world. They are at the BSP, the WUSV, etc. Mention the "worlds" or the "world championship" to GSD sport enthusiasts and they think WUSV.

All breed events like the FCI IPO WM attract far fewer top sport GSD folks because those events are generally not where one gets noticed if one has a sport GSD.

USA sends their second tier of sport dogs to the FCI IPO WM, and their top dogs to the WUSV. If the top sport GSDs from around the world competed in the FCI, the standings might look quite different.

Laura
chris jones
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 03:19 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
I wouldn't call Dean Caulderon and Rex "Second Teir" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />
Laura Sanborn
(Webboard User)
01/09/2003 04:03 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Kevin Hier
(Webboard User)
01/15/2003 10:27 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
i think this discussion also comes down to preference. obviously most poeple have soft fpot for either mals or GSD's, but correct me if i'm wrong here: it seems like for the most part mals are beeter suited for sport work becuase the problems with the weaker nerves can be worked on through training for the scenarios, but GSD's are better for patrol work because they are usually more confident and environmentally sound. just a though, i could be way off base though.
Bryan Colletti
(Webboard User)
01/15/2003 07:58 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
I've been dealing with both breeds for almost 10 years now, I love all the GSDs I've had. The bonds were special. The mals I've had have been healthier and worked as good or better, yet I didn't love all of them. Hard to explain. I have xrayed two Police prospects in the past two weeks GSDs both bad hips. I love the breed, yet I'm staring at 3 Mal puppies right now and my partner is bringing in 3 more in two weeks from his club in Holland. I can't argue with results. But, I'm also not giving up on GSDs either. I have a few new pups ordered here as well.

Bryan Colletti
President of K-9 CRIME STOPPERS INC.
Don B. Ackerson
(Webboard User)
01/16/2003 12:47 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Its rumored that they all came from similar back ground (I don't have the GSD starting pedigree in front of me) but several of the GSD's benifactors look like Mal/DS mixes. Until they got pretty (a personal note), but like Kevin mentioned the Mal seems to be very popular in the sport arena, because of its high prey drive and ability to be easily trained,(a vitue shared by the GSD).

But when distression is a valor like Dennis mentioned the GSD makes better human like reasonable decsions. The GSD was bred for his versitlity, as mention (and we stand on this)maybe not the best at any one thing, but more then competent and many. This is what makes the breed so special and endearing to some. There is no doubt the Mal is a slightly more athletic breed (making it a great breed), but it won't replace a GSD. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Mark Addison
(Webboard User)
01/19/2003 08:09 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
I love these dicussions. I handle a GSD - female, very good patrol dog. I have trained with many other handlers around the state, so we have a nice mixture of GSD's and the BM's. I understand the breeding process has gone downhill for the GSD's but I have seen a lot of BM's that shouldn't be doing what they are doing - as with the GSD's, but I still think we need to select and test the dog itself, not the breed. As you can tell I favor the GSD, but I would take a properly tested BM.

It's like comparing humans - the whites or the blacks or the asians, etc make the better football player. Select and test the person individually, not the race.

My personal opinion
Mark
Kevin Sheldahl
(Moderator)
01/19/2003 06:40 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
A few years ago I would have said that the Mal was healthier, but over the last couple years I've seen too many that had odd ball problems crop up. Maybe they have better hips on average but between congenital eye defects, back problems, widely varying temperments etc. I don't place them above the GSD any more.
Since they aren't in as high demand as the GSD's it is a bunch easier to find an affordable working dog among the Mal, especially since Mal people accept non-pedigreed dogs or at least non-FCI pedigreed dogs more readily than GSD people do.
There are still great GSD's out there, just that they are spead a little thin among all the demand. This includes dogs that could be competitive in any sport. The Dutch love their KNPV and their dogs. They don't need the GSD much for their work, and they cost more $$ as well. They have esptablished lines for the work and going over to lines not so established in KNPV is a risk. I hear talk of the GSD not being suited for KNPV but when I've visited clubs in Holland I have yet to see a GSD that I would consider high quality at those clubs. Those folks are working hard at IPO w/ very few exceptions. The traditions of the KNPV have worked well for them, changing from what has worked may be a waste. This really has nothing to do with the breeds but history and tradition. Not to mention that there is a bit of National pride at stake and therefore why would you take a German dog to a Dutch program?
I work with many many breeds, GS, GSDs, Mal, Tuervs, DS's and many cross bred dogs from Holland. Pick what you like, but be picky, because ultimatly it is not the breed but the dog.
I for one think the GSD is King, and the Mal but a Prince.
Dennis Hasley
(Webboard User)
01/20/2003 09:53 AM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Originally posted by Kevin Sheldahl:
A few years ago I would have said that the Mal was healthier, but over the last couple years I've seen too many that had odd ball problems crop up. Maybe they have better hips on average but between congenital eye defects, back problems, widely varying temperments etc. I don't place them above the GSD any more.
I am with you on this. Why do you think we are seeing a greater odd ball problem?

I am guessing that because the Mal people accept non-pedigreed dogs or at least non-FCI pedigreed dogs more readily than GSD people do. The mix breed that is non papered but sold as a 100% malinois might contribute to it.

I certainly think the mal as a breed, is often too much for a first dog handler. However some of the best dogs I work with are mals. I think Kevin sums it up nice by saying, I for one think the GSD is King, and the Mal but a Prince.
Don B. Ackerson
(Webboard User)
02/10/2003 01:27 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Though the Malinois is a great working dog, I think these two experts summed it up nicely. The GSD weakness (not being great at any one thing,as a breed, but more then adequate at many) makes it the best working dog, weather tackling an assailant on slipiery floors, or a loud touching toddlers the GSD seems to be the right choice, on average. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Don B. Ackerson
(Webboard User)
02/12/2003 12:47 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
A correction "or dealing with a loud touching toddler (stopped here, I meant to write) in the family, the GSD can turn it off and either move away or deal with he child, sometime soothing the kid out. I've seen them bring the kid a toy, like here now be quite!!!
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />
Ab De Jonge
(Webboard User)
08/10/2004 07:04 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Hi,
I can only speak from the experiences we have here in Holland. as a K9 handler(active duty Dutch Sheperd!) and trainer. In active duty here in Holland we only have Mailinois or Dutch sheperds(maybe one or two GSD nationwide!). At the moment there are more and more good hard GSD and gain back slowly their territory at KNPV-clubs and not only VH and Schutzhund-programs. We even had several GSd from showlines that where trained eand examined at KNPV standerds that we sold to foreign policeforces. But Malinois and Dutch sheperds will be here in Holland always be the most wanted working dog for active duty.
But I think the USA bought through the years a lot of dogs from us(Holland especially Malinois!) who where not that impressive at work and thoughness. But they people who bought them paid such price and wasn't always aware of what they we're buying. Through the years i think your training standards are better and have a better gene-pool of both(GSd and Malinois) so stop paying such high prices for our dogs and get a good breeding program.
And at the end, they choice for GSd or Malinois is up to the handler. I had several of both and they we're both reliable , hard dogs who would never back out on me when it comes to it!
Sorry for muy poor English( just a Dutch man!!!)
Greetingssssssssssssssssssssssssss
Will Rambeau
(Moderator)
08/10/2004 07:37 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
But they people who bought them paid such price and wasn't always aware of what they we're buying

Truer words were never spoken!!
Ed Frawley
(Administrator)
08/10/2004 10:31 PM
Re: Mal vs GSD
Bottom line is Ab De Jonge has the good post and he sounds like he has the experience to back up his opinons.

This is like asking if blondes are better in bed than brunettes. It all comes down to drive and nerves doesnt it? Thread closed.