I began training my puppy with the e-collar using the Tritronics guidelines of introducing the collar. Actually I'm amazed at how well he learned everything in basic obedience. But now he's at a point where I want to get a smoother, more precise heel, for example. I want to speed up the recall, and get a reliable, straight sit. I'm trying to get quick, happy reactions. He plays hard, but is not really a hard drive dog. So I've utilized people's suggestions of quick tap tap tap on the momentary button. This creates a jumping motion, and anxiety that he didn't have before using this method. I don't think he really understands what I'm trying to get from him. I read something Donn said referring to the 'Guidance system". He mentioned that the momentary was strictly a "correction based" method. And this makes sense to me. So I'd like to know how best to use the "guidance" philosophy with my TT Pro 100 (until I can get a Dogtra), to polish these behaviors. I feel I've been a little unfair to my dog by experimenting on him, but I'm sincerely trying to learn what works best. He's very sensitive, and if he isn't doing something correctly, it's because he's momentarily confused, or doesn't understand exactly what I want. So "modern e-collar trainers", I need your help. Beginning e-collar work was easy. Doing more advanced work where I'm raising my expectations is more difficult because there aren't as many guidelines at this stage.

Lou or Donn, is constant stim really easier on a dog than momentary? How about "tap tap tap?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

 Quote:

Originally posted by sharon g:
Lou or Donn, is constant stim really easier on a dog than momentary? How about "tap tap tap?" <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Sharon when I read your question on that "other list" and you got the recommendation to go to the tapping system, I knew that this situation was on the horizon. And now here it is.

When I read your first post on this topic on the Forum I was hoping that you'd go back and ask the people who recommended this technique to you. I was curious (I still am) as to what they'd say. If you're going to take training advice it's probably best if you not hop around from technique to technique. Find one and stick to it for awhile.

While I'm not a fan of the tapping technique it sometimes works for dogs that don't respond to other techniques. And I find it sometimes helpful to use occasionally on a dog that gets "stuck." It helps get him moving again but then I go back to contiuous stim.

I think your technique was working just fine but that you were expecting too much too fast. Smoothness and speed will come with the techniques that you were using.

You went to a method of higher compulsion and so what you got is common. Nervous behavior. Not unusual with people who prescribe higher levels on the tap.

If you ask those other folks for help, more than likely they’ll tell you to over look it and keep at it. They'll tell you that in 2–3 weeks that it will stop. But my experience has been that sometimes it does and sometimes it doesn’t. I’ve also seen dogs that never got over the nervousness.

Even in quite a few dogs that have been worked that way extensively, if you know what to look for and look very closely, you’ll see the signs of higher compulsion levels.

Those signs aren’t obvious and I’ve seen very experienced trainers miss them over and over again, even when pointed out. It’s outside their perception so they just don’t see it. Some don't want to see it.

When Donn talks about the tap method being a correction based system what he means is if you use that system, you’re using the Ecollar as the same way that people use a leash, popping corrections on a dog. Only there’s no direction to an Ecollar correction. There’s no way to show the dog when he’s approaching the proper behavior. You can only show him when he’s arrived by stopping the tapping. So he’s not sure how to get there. The guidance system allows you to use the collar to “push” him in the right direction. As he approaches the correct spot (or behavior) you turn the stimulation down and when he’s on it, you turn it off. So it’s much more obvious to the dog what’s wanted of him.

You can only use a TT Ecollar as an approximation of the guidance system since you can’t adjust the stimulation level continuously. But don’t kill yourself yet. If you stay with lower levels of stim and don’t cause the anxiety you’ve mentioned you can get close to it. In between taps, as the dog approaches the right place, turn the stimulation level down a notch. But the limitation is that there's a big jump between levels.

I think you’d be better off going back to low–level continuous stimulation but what do I know???

Speed and smoothness just take a bit of time. Don’t expect them to come right away. Once a dog has learned how to shut off the stimulation you can raise the stimulation level a bit to speed him up. He’ll perform faster to shut it off because it's more uncomfortable. That’s escape training. He’s performing to ESCAPE the stimulation. Once he’s performing very quickly, you can give a command and NOT press the button. Presto!!! He’s performed so fast he BEAT (Avoided) the stimulation.

Those two in combination were the magic of Ecollar training before the guidance system came along.

Have you seen Donn’s video yet???

Lou, thank you so much! I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. I agree that is a problem of mine, being "wishy/washy" and listening to too many people. No, I haven't seen Donn's video yet. I'm hoping to be able to get it next week. Guess it's foolish to try to figure out his system without seeing the video. What does he mean by "drive satisfaction"? Does this mean receiving the ball or reward that puts the dog into drive? That would explain why he is so much better at the park where I'm able to reward him between exercises with some games of fetch & tug. The nervousness is definitely related to the higher compulsion of momentary tap taps. So you're suggesting that I go back to low constant vs trying to approximate the guidance system with the TT Pro 100? He's always from "day one" done a little head shaking with the low stim (low 1) like he's being tickled. But it's different from the nervous jump he does with a tap. That is not a pretty manifestation, and I don't want it to become a habit. I mean if he thinks he'll get a correction, he jumps. So it seems that all my reading and studying Tritronics and Dobbs articles, reading the basic training book that came with my e-collar, all had me on the right track to begin with. I guess what you're saying is that there is no shortcut in dog training. He's too nice a dog to ruin looking for one. Thank you!

Lou, thank you so much! I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. I agree that is a problem of mine, being "wishy/washy" and listening to too many people. No, I haven't seen Donn's video yet. I'm hoping to be able to get it next week. Guess it's foolish to try to figure out his system without seeing the video. What does he mean by "drive satisfaction"? Does this mean receiving the ball or reward that puts the dog into drive? That would explain why he is so much better at the park where I'm able to reward him between exercises with some games of fetch & tug. The nervousness is definitely related to the higher compulsion of momentary tap taps. So you're suggesting that I go back to low constant vs trying to approximate the guidance system with the TT Pro 100? He's always from "day one" done a little head shaking with the low stim (low 1) like he's being tickled. But it's different from the nervous jump he does with a tap. That is not a pretty manifestation, and I don't want it to become a habit. I mean if he thinks he'll get a correction, he jumps. So it seems that all my reading and studying Tritronics and Dobbs articles, reading the basic training book that came with my e-collar, all had me on the right track to begin with. I guess what you're saying is that there is no shortcut in dog training. He's too nice a dog to ruin looking for one. Thank you!

Lou, thank you so much! I really appreciate the time you took to answer my questions. I agree that is a problem of mine, being "wishy/washy" and listening to too many people. No, I haven't seen Donn's video yet. I'm hoping to be able to get it next week. Guess it's foolish to try to figure out his system without seeing the video. What does he mean by "drive satisfaction"? Does this mean receiving the ball or reward that puts the dog into drive? That would explain why he is so much better at the park where I'm able to reward him between exercises with some games of fetch & tug. The nervousness is definitely related to the higher compulsion of momentary tap taps. So you're suggesting that I go back to low constant vs trying to approximate the guidance system with the TT Pro 100? He's always from "day one" done a little head shaking with the low stim (low 1) like he's being tickled. But it's different from the nervous jump he does with a tap. That is not a pretty manifestation, and I don't want it to become a habit. I mean if he thinks he'll get a correction, he jumps. So it seems that all my reading and studying Tritronics and Dobbs articles, reading the basic training book that came with my e-collar, all had me on the right track to begin with. I guess what you're saying is that there is no shortcut in dog training. He's too nice a dog to ruin looking for one. Thank you!

Sorry! Why this posted 3 times, I'll never know.

Sorry! Why this posted 3 times, I'll never know.

 Quote:

Originally posted by sharon g:
I agree that is a problem of mine, being "wishy/washy" and listening to too many people. No, I haven't seen Donn's video yet. I'm hoping to be able to get it next week. Guess it's foolish to try to figure out his system without seeing the video. What does he mean by "drive satisfaction"?

Snip

The nervousness is definitely related to the higher compulsion of momentary tap taps. So you're suggesting that I go back to low constant vs trying to approximate the guidance system with the TT Pro 100? He's always from "day one" done a little head shaking with the low stim (low 1) like he's being tickled. But it's different from the nervous jump he does with a tap. That is not a pretty manifestation, and I don't want it to become a habit. I mean if he thinks he'll get a correction, he jumps.

Snip

So it seems that all my reading and studying Tritronics and Dobbs articles, reading the basic training book that came with my e-collar, all had me on the right track to begin with. I guess what you're saying is that there is no shortcut in dog training. He's too nice a dog to ruin looking for one. Thank you!

Trying to figure out the guidance system w/o seeing the video can be done, but it’s much easier if you see it as well as hear it.

Donn and I, and many other trainers, especially those who work with dogs that use their noses, such as Police Service Dogs and SAR dogs base our work on the drives of those dogs.

I don’t know that anyone on that “Other list” who understand drives, much less works in them. Most of them are followers of one very prolific trainer who has put on many seminars. He advertises his seminars all over the Internet, but never answers any questions asked of him. That trainer gets results, that is the dogs perform, but at what cost??? He's told me several times, "I just believe in one drive. The 'do it when I say do it' drive."

I’d suggest that you ask a question about “drive satisfaction” on that list and see if anyone answers you. LOL.

Anyway, two of the most powerful tools in dog training are self discovery and self motivation. The first means that the dog figures out for himself how to do what we want. In Ecollar training we guide the dog into position and then shut off the stimulation. After a few reps the dog realizes for himself what shuts off the stimulation, it’s his performance. The second part means that the dog wants to do (whatever) because his drives make him do it. A very basic example is teaching a dog who has prey drive, to find his own ball. His drive makes him want to find the ball so he can play with it and so he achieves drive satisfaction by finding it.

You can use the tap system with the guidance system but if you go to high levels you’ll often find the nervousness you mention. Most of those who advocate it will tell you that the nervousness will disappear in a couple of weeks but many dog owners find it distasteful. I think it’s horrible, both in appearance and what it does to the relationship that I think should exist between a dog and his handler. When a dog does this he’s telling you very graphically that he’s in pain and that he’s confused. Giving him more pain won’t unconfuse him. It will make him worse. After a few weeks he’ll finally figure it out, but by then your relationship is in the toilet.

The methods that have been suggested to you, high levels of stimulation on a tap system, will get you very fast results with most dogs. Some won’t show the response that you got from your dog, but many will I’ve attended seminars when people have been turned off by those methods. I’ve received lots of emails from people who tell me that they’ve been turned off to Ecollars from those same methods.

I’ve worked with many of them and showed them that the culprit wasn’t the Ecollar, it was how it was ysed.

I’d suggest that you take a look at a letter written by Donn in another place on this same forum. It came after a rather unpleasant exchange by someone who uses those other methods.

It’s at
http://www.leerburg.com/cgi-bin/UBB/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=8&t=00001
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Lou,
Im happy to say that I didn't go to those "high stim" levels. The tap tap disturbed him because he was taught with constant. Plus I usually use low or medium button, and the momentary button on the Pro 100 is high stim. If I used momentary with the dogtra collar, a more comfortable range probably could be found for him.

I agree we are talking about 2 entirely different sytems here. That's why I'm not comfortable asking the same questions on that other list as I ask here. I want to learn about drive satisfaction, how to utilize drives whether I can work this dog in drive or not. He has ball drive, but I don't know how to use this to get drive satisfaction in obedience. The reason the people on that other list like this momentary tap system so well is that it is just a simple conversion from the Koehler and other correction based methods. And as you said, they don't know anything about how to use drives. But I want to be better than that. I want to get the best out of my dog, and keep a good trusting relationship. I don't want to use the e-collar just as a leash correction, when it has so much more teaching potential. I don't understand one thing. If hunting dogs are being trained that way; compulsion rather than drive, then why doesn't it affect them the way it affects a PSD or even my dog for that matter? Aren't these dogs bred with a tremendous hunt drive, that could also be satisfied through use of the guidance system? It seems to me that compulsion must limit the full potential a dog could otherwise reach. Aren't the very successful hunting dog trainers also using drives to train their dogs?