Quote:

And also, I thought I had read an article that Ed wrote (I could be wrong) that said that it's not uncommon for dogs of a certain age to test their boundaries and see if they can ignore a previously learned command. Of course, I'm paraphrasing here..but I'd just like to know your thoughts on that theory. I'm curious as to whether or not I misinterpreted or misread this.

Hey Amber, I thought I would kinda butt in here and explain my post a little. I've always thought that at this point it meant they needed to learn they had to do it through corrections. Straight out compulsion period. Now I'm not so sure it has to be so one sided. There will always be a need for some corrections but I think I can do a better job with my training to overide a lot more of the distractions that would make him ignore me.

 Quote: bob scott

In addition to what Roni said, dogs respond to leadership.
Ignoring other people, even if in your own family, is about leadership, not because they are blowing them off!
A stubborn dog is a confused dog or a dog that lacks leadership. JMHO!

Okay, I think we're talking about the same thing, then. Because when I talk about a dog "giving someone the finger" I mean that the dog does not see that person as a leader. It's certainly not because I think that the dog just feels like being a jerk that day! It's always been clear that my dog does not see my husband as a leader.

Bob, I agree but am somewhat confused.

Leadership is rank. Being the leader is being higher in rank. Dogs do what they understand the leader wants. If a dog does not view a human as a leader/higher ranking, they might not be blowing them off in the sense that most people think of the term... I would look at it as the dog doesn't understand it has to obey a command from a low ranking/weak individual because it is not in their nature to do so but they *are* choosing to ignore a command because they do not follow weak energy.

I do think that people really underestimate the energy they give off and how it affects the dog. Not to mention tone inflection and that just because sit is spelled S-I-T doesn't mean that it is the same to the dog when different people say i thanks to tone inflection and voice quality.

IMO most people just don't put the right energy or tone to the command that is needed to reach through to a dog in drive or under distraction or with lots of noise etc, or they put too much into it and it changes the whole sound of the word and winds up being nonsense to the dog.

But I believe that dogs do refuse commands as a test or expression of rank/leadership issues.

 Quote: steve strom

There will always be a need for some corrections but I think I can do a better job with my training to overide a lot more of the distractions that would make him ignore me.

I totally agree! I'm pretty sure that's what Roni was saying, too.

I was just throwing out the specific cases where leadership/rank issues could cause a dog to ignore a known command, all other things being equal (drive, distraction, etc).

I do think that many people are quick to assume it's a rank issue or leadership issue when perhaps what's actually happened is that they've overestimated their dog's grasp of the command.

Thanks, Steve.

Sorry, bad choice of words. I mean't only to say that Willie seems to wait until he hears the word NO before he responds to the Come command. Lord knows what is running through his mind when he does that. I certainly don't. I am assuming that he has figured out that the nick isn't coming until after he hears the word No. I would love some input on whether I'm understanding it correctly and how I can change my training technique to teach Willie to respond to the Come command before he hears the word No.

P.S. There are times when Willie hears the command - I know because he checks back with me visually - and I know he understands the command because 95% of the time he responds appropriately - but sometimes he doesn't execute - he waits until he hears No. I would like to improve on this.

 Quote: roni hoff

When our dogs ignore a command, they either do not understand the command under those conditions or the drive they are in is not allowing them to focus on us. They just don't flip us the furry finger.

Ah - good point, thank you Roni. So let me try to think this through again. In the situation that Robert and I were posting about, the dog fails to respond to the "come" command, but we know he has both heard it and understands it. So he's choosing to do something else that is more appealing at that moment based on his state of mind/drive. But when he hears "no" he associates it -based on past experience - with an imminent e-collar nick if he doesn't respond, so this shifts him into a different drive?

If I remember right Carol had a great post a while ago describing what might be going through a dog's mind when you use an e-collar. It went something like "I'm in prey drive - I'm in prey drive - I hear you but I can't come now because I'm in prey drive - OH!! YOWZA!! - OK I'm coming...." (Sorry for the poor rendition Carol - it was much funnier in the original).

I guess my concept of drive is a more intense and focused state of mind, and I have trouble thinking about my dog being in any kind of drive when he's just lolling about 50 yards away sniffing deer poop and looking over his shoulder at me. What exactly does "drive" mean in this context?

I am not sure that was me....but maybe....

with "gotta get the kitty" "gotta get the kitty" theme.....

Hi Amber;
I also have a hubby that is not dog savy. Remember, when we train a dog, we also use body language along with our voice and so many times I think dogs learn the "way" we give the command. Since others give commands in their "way", I think sometimes this can explain confusion. Do dogs test bounderies, hmmmmm, yes I think their confidence to explore and their drives come up as they mature and of course I train in drive so we have that issue. Again, drive up, harder to focus on the task at hand, which is why we have to have the dog in that drive to proof a command once it is learned.

PS Just viewed another post. I whisper commands to my dog, and he still listens. It's all in the training. Having to speak to the dog in a commanding tone is old school dog training, "we've come a long way, baby". Lots more fun too!!!!!

Roni, I agree that is is training and I also whisper commands but the thing to remember is the way you train the command should be the way you intend to say it when you give it. I am a firm believer in the energy you put into your command (and I meant the whole body, not strictly use of the voice but primarily as it is easier for people to grasp) can be mirrored in your dog. I personally like a dog that is sensitive to the energy it is given by the handler.

P.S. Re: training the way you plan to say it. I say this because the word is not what has the meaning to the dog. Sit does *not* mean sit does not mean sit (varying tone of voice) unless you train it that way. One person saying sit in two different ways can get two different results because the dog responds to the sound, not S-I-T.