Contacting the seller seems like a very good idea. In addition to getting questions answered you might find out if he'd be willing to refund your money and take the dog back.

 Quote: jennifer marshal

Jason,If most of the problems are when he has no leash on ... don't take the leash off.

He has had bite work training on the sleeve. The owner stated he was a very hard dog and would be ideal for a PPD. Little if no training has been implemented with him. Just some basic stuff. I agree that i dropped the ball when i let him growl at me, however with little help and no proper equipment to use at the time, i felt it was best for my safety to let that slide and get him back into his crate by luring him in.

Keep him on a leash you say? I would so do that if it wasn't for the fact he chews them all up into pieces. I put him on a $45 Ray Allen 6' RAM Police Lead and he had that chewed up the next morning. So to cut back on leashes being destroyed, i have stopped leashing him while in the crate. It doesnt get me anywhere except for buying another leash So like i stated i use the fishing method with a coat hanger to snag his leash while my friend distracts him with a piece of hot dog wiener. It works really well and is very effective and safe. Providing there is a choke chain already on the dog.

I had another hard dog which he has done a complete 360 and is now considered a "Family Pet". He was trying to dominate me and establish himself as pack leader. I quickly solved the problem before it got out of hand. No obedience, No fooling around. I simply showed him who is boss. Safe and Effectively. I had to hang him til on the verge of passing out. it only took once and the dog is an angel now, literally. That has been 2 yrs ago. No problems since.

Although, i realize no 2 dogs are the same and it could be very true in this case here but im running out of options. I have tried being aloof and all of that but it doesnt have any effect on this dog.

So this leads me to what i did tonight, just like an hour ago.

First i coordinated to make sure all safety measures were in place for us and the dog. I used one of my other 6' ft Police leads and a long line attached also (as back up) with my friend holding the long line.

I simply instructed my friend to do what normally triggers his agression. He did so. I gave the dog a level 10 correction right at the moment he started his crap. Take note; im using a choke collar on him because he wont let us around his neck area to prong him or dominant dog collar him, so that was not an option we had. We had to go with what he had already on him. So after the correction, he looked stunned, like "What happened?" then i told my friend to walk away and -re-approach him again casually and try to frisk him around his neck. He done so, and the dog started again only this time lunging at my friend and fully in attack mode. I at this point had little to no option but to use the choke method. I choked him out. He stayed out for about 30 secs. I don't even think he was fully out of it but enough to stop his agression in it's tracks.

So we wait alittle and give him some water and let him get his strength back. I want him at his best. So i have my friend re-approach again, as my friend approaches the dog starts growling again. instead of giving a correction i give the dog the benefit of the doubt and say "NO!" His agression/growling stops. Cold Turkey.

We keep repeating this, we would get some growls here and there but as soon as i mentioned "No" or took up slack on the leash he would stop instantly. Now my friend atleast with this correction phase could walk up to him the rest of the time and frisk him all over. Neck and all, even pull on the ears, while im giving stern commands and he growls very very lightly. We have gotten him to the point where my friend can come up to him and frisk him all over and eve nget alittle rough by pulling his sides enough to get him agitated before but not now.

I know this has probably got to be repeated some more to get him to understand that it will NOT be accepted in this pack. By any means. For now, it has improved him. However, this is with the LEASHES ON. We have not tried this with them off and when he gets in his own little mindset. It seems like he knows when th eleashes are on and when they are not. Hopefully this correction has got his attention. Im not bragging about this at all and certainly hope this post doesn't make it sound that way. I have alot of work to do with him that is for sure. He has 4 types of aggression. Handler/Territorial/Food/Dog -- Im just focused one the handler part right now and until i feel comfortable that i got him where i want him i won't move on to the other till then.

Alot of you may disagree with how i dealt with this, but note, my other hard dog was almost the same way just not as bad and i did the same exact thing and it worked. No problems since. None.

Im only motivational to a certain degree. When it comes to hard dogs, motivational training is pretty much ruled out.

Im going to work him tomorrow too with the same methods but only using the choke method ONLY if i have too. Hopefully he has learned his lesson and understands who the boss is.

I will keep you all updated.

Thanks for the advice!

Also, About the Ceaser Millian deal, i heard that you must live in Beverly Hills home and had to of been born with asilver spoon in your mouth to get on that show. I forgot where i read but someone said they were lucky enough to get an audition call and one of the questions they asked was what is your home worth? Lol what kinda crap is that? Thanks but i will pass on that. Plus i beleive half of that stuff is staged.

Jason, you are going to get your friend hurt and you are not doing this new dog or your PPD expectations any good either. What are you doing?

"Im not bragging about this at all .... " Good. You shouldn't be.

We were both at risk. No doubt. I fully understand that and so does he. I actually wanted to handle this by myself but he insisted on helping me. Everything went smooth. Shotgun was at reach in a high place if needed. Like i said, all safety measures were in place. He was submitting. Not fighting us aggressively. I would never put anyone in danger blindly. Ever.

Jason

Hey Jason,
The dog has been with you for a few days and it's getting level 10 corrections and choked out when you set it up for your friend (a stranger to the dog) to touch him?,
AL

 Quote: Al Curbow

Hey Jason,
The dog has been with you for a few days and it's getting level 10 corrections and choked out when you set it up for your friend (a stranger to the dog) to touch him?,
AL

Jason, do you not understand what Al is saying?

Ok a few things really jump out at me here. Does he have an injury to his neck area that you know of? I would consider having him checked out for injuries old or new, his sensitivity around the neck area is a little odd, for me. It is possible he has either been choked out with someone's hands or has an injury from previous training. Or it could very well just be a quirk of his but if you contact the seller I would recommend asking him if the dog has ever hurt it's neck.

Also, I agree with the method for correcting handler aggression, but if you plan on having this dog as a PPD don't correct him in this manner for aggression towards a stranger.. I thought the issue here was handler aggression? You need to be the one correcting him for aggression towards YOU. Yes if the behavior is unwanted correcting it is good, if you don't want the dog to be aggressive towards this particular friend then I say ok, you've begun that learning process - but was this friend a stranger to the dog before this session?

I may be missing something but why did you move from a level 10 correction on a choke collar... that worked... to choking him out? Did you not feel the level 10 correction would be enough the next time or did he escalate?

Being hard to physical correction does not mean a dog cannot be trained motivationally. Actually to the contrary a dog that is hard to physical correction is easier to train motivationally than with heavy handed correct first ask questions later methods. If the dog has drive to be motivated by food or toys it makes life a bit easier than trying to man handle the dog.

The difference comes with the aggression level and what you are trying to accomplish with your training. You cannot use purely possitive methods to change handler aggression or generalized dominance aggression unless your goal is to just keep the dog from biting you by giving it whatever it wants.

Also.. what Al and Connie said.



Edited by Jennifer Marshal (01/19/2009 10:52 PM)
Edit reason: spell/clarify

 Quote: Al Curbow

Hey Jason,
The dog has been with you for a few days and it's getting level 10 corrections and choked out when you set it up for your friend (a stranger to the dog) to touch him?,
AL

There is nothing to set-up period. We are simply doing what it takes to trigger him. It would be the same situation if we were to let him out of the crate without a leash. When we approach he becomes aggressive, plain and simple. You don't put a beggin' bacon strip in your mouth and go up to him and challenge him. He is not that kind of dog. If im bad then so is Ed. I have tried alt. methods with him. The dog has to come out of his crate to use the bathroom, he will not do it in his crate. That is being cruel and mean. The dog has to be given water and take out for excercise. There is no other way around that, if i didn't do these things then i would be the bad one wouldn't i? So you tell me how are you supposed to handle a dog when he comes bursting out of his crate (With NO leash) and when you approach he is ready for a fight? You tell me. His situation calls for a sudden approach. I don't have weeks, months eve nyears to figure this out. The dog needs to know that we provide/care for him Take him out to potty. The agression needs to be eliminated for these reasons.

Jason

Yes i understand, my friend is staying with me also. He has been here since day 1 when i got the dog. He helps takes care of him when im at work. So no he is not considered a stranger to the dog. More so a care taker when im unable to do so. The dog knows the corrections are coming from me. I took can frisk him when normally he would growl.snarwl. A level 10 correction, it worked, well atleast got his attention. But didn't stop his aggression. He lunged at my friend that is when the choke method was used. I feel confident with with the way im handling things and feel i can get him to come out of this crap. The owner who had him did not state about any abuse or neck problem he may have. A visit to the vet may be in order, good advice.

When you have very few option and the dog is willing to give you none, then what choices do you really have?

Jason

Holy frickin Christ...

If you have to have a shotgun ready to manage this situation and this dog then you have NO business doing what you're doing. NONE. NADA. This is not experienced dog handling...it's BS. I've never seen anything like this...EVER...on this forum.

Do this dog a favor and return him to the seller ASAP. You do not have the experience to own a dog like this.