It's interesting that the question even comes up, yes there are two dogs who do operate crateless in my house because they are well beyond puppy antics and paper shredding. The vast majority do crate up however, mainly because I have to live here, I pay the bills, and can live without my house being destroyed.

Thinking back however I'm not so sure that we ever operated without a kennel/crate kind of place with our dogs. After all the dogs who couldn't be trusted not to chew stuff up in the house became outside dogs in the backyard when we weren't home when I was a kid. It wasn't until the mid 90s that we first started crating our dogs and leaving them indoors when we weren't home.

In my fathers day no dogs were left to roam in the house, it was just plain unheard of. When you weren't home the dog was either outside on a chain, or in a kennel of some kind. When you came home from work that's when the dog was allowed in.

On my grandfather's farm there was no such thing as an inside dog until my great grandmother got some expensive fuzzy little thing (from the story it sounded like a pom) that they were sure the other dogs or the hogs would eat. Most of the dogs then were chained unless they were hunting and even puppies were reared in a horse stall. Crates (dog boxes) at the time were pretty much just for transporting dogs in cars to hunt sites.

I guess my point is that dog training and how we live with dogs has changed... rather radically at least in my family in the last 100 years. Personally I think the crate is rather indispensable for how I want to live with my dogs and has become pretty much an expectation in modern life for people who work and choose to live with a dog. Not many breeders (at least in my breed) would sell to someone who kept their dogs in a backyard, or on a chain. I know a fair number who won't sell to someone who keeps their dog in a kennel run.

I appreciate your sharing, Melissa!

Here in CA, we *could* get reported if we chain dogs in our own shaded yards these days. I grew up with dogs chained in the yard also. I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating if the purpose is to protect the house & people. Nobody gets reported for crating dogs inside or in yards.

I guess the idea of crating is so new to me just because I didn't know anybody who crates dogs. I do understand it's a wonderful tool for training and for providing a safe den at the same time. But I just can't seem to change my style of letting the dogs have access to the yard or toss around toys to entertain themselves. If I had a "normal" job to keep me from home for 10 hours, I wouldn't have dogs let alone keep them confined without running for that long. I'm probably paying a higher price by constantly watching what the puppy is doing to make sure she doesn't destroy planter boxes or nothing on the patio is within her reach. But that's how I've always raised puppies. Letting the puppy have free access to a limited area (part of the kitchen + full yard) gives me the opportunity to immediately correct unwanted behavior and assess the damage, and I think there are some benefits of this as long as I'm willing to do this much work.

Again, I'm not trying to debate at all, and I don't want to recommend not crating by any means. I just wanted to introduce myself and our "style" of puppy confinement to make sure it's acceptable in this forum.

 Quote: Cherlee Reid

... I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating ...

Among many many differences between crating a dog indoors and chaining one in the yard:

A chained dog is trapped like a staked-out bait animal, at the mercy of other dogs, wild predators, teasing kids, poisoners, thieves, and more.

... I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating ...



different psychology. dog in a crate, or kennel, or car feels secure because they are in a very strong defensive position, on a chain they feel exposed with no means of escape so the only option left is aggression at anything withing sight or hearing

 Quote: Dennis Jones

... I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating ...

different psychology. dog in a crate, or kennel, or car feels secure because they are in a very strong defensive position, on a chain they feel exposed with no means of escape so the only option left is aggression at anything withing sight or hearing

Yup ... in a den or tied out, exposed.

(I'd say that they feel exposed with no means of escape because they are exposed with no means of escape.)

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

A chained dog is trapped like a staked-out bait animal, at the mercy of other dogs, wild predators, teasing kids, poisoners, thieves, and more.

Sorry I wasn't clear about the S. CA living condition in over-crowded residential sections. I was talking about a fenced backyard. One could still break in to tease the dog & get bitten (and sue the dog owner) unless the dog is crated, of course. Some small wild critters but no predators. Front yard chaining is a promise to get reported as soon as the owner leaves the dog's sight (like they should). I was talking about backyard tethering. And yes, every single house has a small fenced back yard which people in other parts of the country would probably consider a joke. Nobody in the right mind would chain a dog in an open area, and I'm sure it's pretty illegal in CA. I'm REALLY not here to argue against crating, chaining, or anything else people choose to do.

I repeat: I'm not trying to explain or justify not crating my dogs. I just wanted to share how we confine the puppy and that's still acceptable to this community for me to participate in. If behavioral problems develop in the future and others strongly recommend crating, I'm completely open to suggestions, and I will readily admit no-crate does not work with some pups.

I think the responses are triggered by the comment "... I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating ..." and not by a sense that you are arguing against crate-training.

If my dog was in a back yard that he could get out of by jumping or digging, then loose dogs could get in. But that's not my sole concern.

There is not going to be a time when I tie my dog out without my presence.

But again, I'm not trying to argue for crating. I'm responding to "... I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating ..."

 Quote: dennis jones

different psychology. dog in a crate, or kennel, or car feels secure because they are in a very strong defensive position, on a chain they feel exposed with no means of escape so the only option left is aggression at anything withing sight or hearing

Of course it is different psychology. I was merely talking about people getting reported for chaining the dog in the backyard on occasions these days. But in case of strange noises, intruders, etc., if the dog is crated outside (won't get reported), I tend to doubt outside crates would make much difference in providing that much more sense of security as at least my dogs would never just curl up in a corner to hide. I don't chain dogs either FYI, if you must know..........

I feel I'm getting cornered in this thread no matter how hard I try to emphasize that I'm not against crating at all but I don't crate my current pup just because we never have raised puppies with crates. If I later have issues that may have been caused by not crating, you can give me a bad time then; I would happily share my mistake for others to learn from. I'm not convinced that I should crate in "anticipation of" future problems that may/may not happen because of the way we confine the pup in the kitchen, and she is provided with a "roofed den" without a gate to lock her in. The thread is getting out of focus, and unless one of the officials tells me no-crate dogs are welcome in this forum or be shared & helped with open mindedness, I take it as "no-crate is not advisable but I'm still welcomed in the community".

 Quote: cherlee reid

Again, I'm not trying to debate at all, and I don't want to recommend not crating by any means. I just wanted to introduce myself and our "style" of puppy confinement to make sure it's acceptable in this forum.

I can't say that it's unacceptable. I think the problem is that many of us often hear things like I don't crate my dog then the next week or month we hear the complaint that my dog chews everything up, is unhousebroken, or has destroyed a house. If you can provide your dog with enough structure in it's life to be well trained, housebroken, and a social member of the family without a crate, more power to ya. I'm sure if I didn't work, go to school, or have a social life it could be done with tethering around here since my dogs are pretty soft pushovers and I like to think I'm fairly stable.

The problem is when you have unrealistic expectations in your own life. If you leave your home for work school etc. Do you think your X pen and baby gate will contain your puppy when it has a throw of separation anxiety? How are your dog's energy levels? Are you prepared for your cabinets to be chew toys? Do you understand the amount of damage to a home a dog can really do when you're not home? A baby gate works great, until your dog discovers how to dig through drywall. Not every dog will do this, but it just takes one to show you the destruction levels that a dog can do.

Shoot, I just came home from fishing today. I was gone about an hour and a half. I left my puppy in her crate which apparently was pushed close enough to the couch that she drug a throw pillow into her crate. Fluff gore everywhere, one throw pillow dead, but am I upset about it? No. She was just being a dog with an owner that didn't notice that pillow. She's a 5 lb dog. I can only imagine the amount of destruction a 50 - 70 lb dog can do in an hour and a half.

No one said you had to crate, and the second page of the thread is about this: I don't understand the difference between chaining and crating.

Of course you will be helped with open-mindedness.

QUOTE: hey if your happy with it, pull what you want from here, disregard what you don't. imho crate training is essential if you travel with your dog or just need the pupper out from underfoot for a few minutes. Some of our dogs will destroy a house if left alone too long.

QUOTE: There are a few protocols common to most forum members, but our individual needs vary. To my knowledge, no one has ever been excluded for doing things a little differently.

QUOTE: Welcome Cherlee! ... I don't think anyone here will berate you for not using a crate, although if you have behavioral problems down the road you may find a common response will be 'why isn't your pup crate trained'! ... Best wishes to you and the new pup!

QUOTE: But no, of course no one requires it. We will all point at you and whisper behind your back, but that's all.

QUOTE: If what you've done in the past with your dogs has worked, then keep doing what you've done-crate or not.

QUOTE: You don't NEED a crate, but it sure makes life easier. When you post a behavioral problem on the forum in future, don't be surprised that most responses will be telling you to use a crate.

QUOTE: I guess my point is that dog training and how we live with dogs has changed... rather radically at least in my family in the last 100 years. Personally I think the crate is rather indispensable for how I want to live with my dogs and has become pretty much an expectation in modern life for people who work and choose to live with a dog ...

And then we get into chaining issues.

I don't think any of this should make anyone feel "cornered." I think that everyone has been courteous and respectful.

No one is shooing anyone away for not crating.

So again, welcome!