Vince,

Really what you said about this dog is exactly the gist of it. It was too much dog for these people to handle. As I said earlier, they were way in over their head.

Ellen,

The statement "putting the fear of God into him" is more of an expression than me suggesting unfair heavy handed techniques. At 9 months, surely this dog was more than ready for properly administered prong collar corrections. If anything, I probably should of explained what I meant in more detail. Perhaps the word "fear" is the inappropriate word. "Respect" is really what I was getting at. Also, a dog may not be capable at 9 months to have a full-fledged dominance issue(not mature enough to "fight"), but surely the behavior this dog was exibiting was a pre-cursor of things to come.

Ellen,

One more thing....did Ruby's origional post state "Chuck, if your out there, please give me advice."? You seemed to chastise her as if she knew who would be the first to respond to her questions. Perhaps the end of your post should read "Ruby, in the future please ask for Ellen personsally." Who knows, you probably know oogles more than me, but all I know is I've NEVER had a dog who I caused to mistrust me. Opinions. Some professional, some not. Thats all we are talking about here.

Sorry, but I had to chuckle when I read this thread--what a bunch of defensive people we are--is it breed specific or what? Didn't take long for an innocent plea for help to turn into accusations of personal insult.

Chuck, when someone asks a question in a public forum, even if it's addressed to you, and you answer, both the question and the answer become a free-for-all. If you want your answer to go unchallenged, it is advisable to take it up privately.

Anyway, Ruby asked a very serious question about a very serious problem, something that makes at least some of us feel uncomfortable deep down--dog aggression in its ugliest form. The problem is that at this point there is no 100% solution, so we tend to address this issue based on our own pet-peeves, so to speak. Ellen's philosophy is based on building a relationship of trust and respect from the very beginning, so that issues of dominance need not even come up if the foundation is strong enough (in short-motivation vs compulsion). But then Ellen's dogs are perfect <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , she breeds them to her own specifications, tests them to her own specifications and raises them accordingly, i.e.--she starts with the right genetic material.

Chuck and Vince are obviously of male persuasion and tend to address this problem from the "macho" point of view--put a pinch collar on the SOB and show him who's the boss. You are absolutely right, guys, there comes a point once in a while when this approach becomes a necessity.

I too, have my own pet-peeve. When I read Ruby's original post, my first intuition was poor breeding. It just didn't seem to be your garden-variety dominance issue alone. IMO, the dog was plain crazy (or call it Canine Rage Syndrome, if you wish). What bothers me more and more lately is that we tend to strive for harder and tougher dogs, the side effect of which is very often EXTREME handler-hardness. What good is a dog if you have to muzzle him, wear protective gear, use level-10 corrections and have a loaded gun handy in case it gets REAL ugly--just to do obedience? Is this truly a working dog? The overall consensus is always "this dog is not for everyone". Meaning what--it's not for wusses? What is the point in breeding dogs which are suitable for but a few?

The term "handler sensitivity" (or call it "handler softness", or "willingness to please") seems to have become a dirty word. I heard people apologize when mentioning it, like "don't mean it in a negative way". What's so negative about it?

Anyway, I better cut this short, damn job keeps interfering with my life. If anyone out there knows of dogs who bite hard, fight hard, are handler-sensitive and look enough like GSDs to get at least KKl2, please e-mail me privately--DO NOT broadcast this on the board. I want them for myself--all two of them <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

 Quote:

But then Ellen's dogs are perfect <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> , she breeds them to her own specifications, tests them to her own specifications and raises them accordingly

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Now THAT'S a good one Renee! X that and your post is right on. BTW quality control doesn't always mean your souffle won't turn out like a pancake. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I think the main issue here has to do with reading the individual dog. You can take two different dogs and treat them exactly the same and yet get completely different results! You must be able to read the dog and adapt what you're doing to respond to that particular dog's personality in order to get the response from that dog that you want.

It sounds to me like this dog was very dominant, and that the physical corrections reinforced his perception that force is the way to improve one's rank. When Ruby says that the dog charged her for no reason at all, I really don't think it was for no reason. It was because the dog wanted to improve his rank, and he saw her as an easy target. I think that the dog percieved her husband as being the most dominant, then her second. The dog chose to challenge her for her rank when her husband was not home - that tells me something right there. It was when Ruby made eye contact with the dog that he charged. In other words, her eye contact, in the dog's mind, was an acceptance of his challenge, so he charged. Had she not turned around and looked at him when she was at the computer, I would wager that he would have either repositioned himself so that she would have to acknowlege his presence and either respond submissively or accept his challenge, or he would have walked away when she didn't respond.

I think that it should have been clear when the dog first responded to attempts at correction with aggression that there was an issue here. At that point, I would have worked really hard to avoid physical correction, and instead, teach the dog that in order to eat, poop, sleep, practically in order to breathe, he has to earn it. You don't do this through physical force, but rather through psychological manipulation, where you show the dog that you are the leader by simply being the leader, rather than trying to assert your dominance through physical force. There's a difference between dominating a dog and leading him.

Basically, while physical corrections work well for the majority of dogs, when applied to a certain type of dog inappropriately, it teaches the dog just the opposite of what you are trying to teach him.

Of course, this is all just my opinion, I don't know the dog, and I don't know Ruby, and I certainly have never had this problem. I'm just kind of thinking out loud here.....

Renee:

Since I was body builder for 10 years, boxed for 3, wrestled for 4 and studied Karate for 8 I will take the macho comment as a compliment. LOL.

Hello all,

Now that I have stired the pot with my original post I still don't have the answer I was striving for. My original post said
"We have always wondered what we could of done differently in case we encounter this situation again".

Everyone seemed to analize what the problem was with Riesz and how I handled him. It really doesn't matter what the problem was, what matters is how do you handle a dog of this magnitude?

I have heard pro's and con's about a prong. But yet nobody said how to use it, when to use it, and for what length of time. Am I supposed to let him walk around the house with it on? Since Riesz was so unpredictable and could not be read I would assume that would be the answer.

Every time Riesz charged me I was never making eye contact with him. When I was in the other room at the computer, I simply reached over to get a piece of paper out of the printer and WHAM he was in mid-air lunging at me. My back was to him. I had just enough time to stand up and stop him by blocking his lunge with the chair. Had I not, I would of had had my throat ripped out!
Riesz definately wasn't going to stop on his own.

One of the other incidents that still amazes me is I was laying down on our couch in the family room. Riesz was laying down about 10 feet away from me. I simply rolled on my side and he was instantly a raving lunatic trying to bite my face. This action I was able to stop by grabbing him by the throat with both hands, keeping him away from me until I was at least able to sit up and control him better.

Yes, I do agree with the pack order. It was my husband, Riesz, then myself in Riesz eyes.

Yes, I do agree with the fact that when he was corrected severly that he was also upping his level of agression towards us. Kind of like telling us "He's not taking our S--T" anymore!

Yes, I totally agree that Riesz was out of our range of handling this type of dog. This is why he was not given away, taken to a shelter, or sold to anyone else because he was becoming dangerous to be around. I am a very responsible owner and do the best that I can with what I have to work with.

There have been post concerning me bonding with Riesz and not earning his respect. I understand this, so.....how do you do this with this type of dog? I did everything I have done with all our dogs, nothing different and never had a problem. I guess there is a first time for everything. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Issues have been raised about putting the "Fear of God" into him. Well Riesz wasn't corrected with hard corrections until he was 9 months old. I only weight 97-lbs and he was right behind me in the weight catagory. I still have many years to live and did not want to be taken out by my own dog. NO dog rules my house - they live by MY rules - end of story!
I did everything possible, researched, asked hundreds of questions with so called "professionals" and got 100 different answers. Yes, I understand that if one method doesn't work, then go to the next method. But sooner or later you run out of methods and what do you do then????

Defensive, NO, I believe everyone was stating their opinions and answering the slams as well should have. I have taken no offense to any post or feel I have the right too! You don't know me and I certainly don't know you!

Hey, hey, hey, I came to this board since I felt it was much more knowledgable than others I have run across.......So let's try this one more time.....Chuck F., Ellen, Vince, J Parker, etc.....HOW WOULD OF YOU HANDLED RIESZ IF HE WAS YOUR DOG?????? I don't care what other handlers, trainers, breeders, and so called professionals think of the posts. What works for you does not always work for someone else. Maybe with a combination of everyones suggestions - I will at least be able to compose myself and handle another "Dominant, Fear-Biter, Unruly, or just a plain old pain in the a** dog"! God knows it won't be the first time. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks all - Ruby

I agree with Vince.... My manhood has been bolstered tremendously. Thanks Renee!!!

Seriously though, I now understand where Ellen was coming from. She was not personally attacking anyone. For the record, I apologize to everyone for getting off topic and to Ellen for overeacting just a bit.

Hello Bob,
To answer some of your questions, I will do my best.
Training - I took him to class 1 hour a week and was taught how to train him... I did work with him every day for short periods of time so he wouldn't get bored. I progressed to working with him twice a day... Morning and Evening for 15 minutes each session. Then it was playtime.

Feeding - He was feed on a schedule. A small portion in the morning before we left for work. He was then feed again at 6:00 p.m after we had dinner. Never before. Both my husband and I feed him. We worked with him as a pup - we could both take anything including food away from him with no problems. He would give us anything. We always made Riesz sit before his dish was placed down and while we ate, he was in a down away from the table.

Commands - Were always enforced at home and outside the home. He was excellent with commands, never a problem.

Regiment - Riesz was crated from 7:00 a.m to 12:00 noon due to us working. At noon my father came over every day and let him out to take care of his business, and play with him awhile. He was then crated until 3:30 p.m. when my husband came home from work. This was on a schedule Mon - Fri. The rest of the time he had run of the house.

Every evening we had a long walk which we incorporated the recall, sit stays, down stays, etc... Fortunately we live next to our High School and have the advantage of using the enclosed baseball diamonds and football fields for running and playing ball. He was also given plenty of roadwork on a short lead
on a choke collar for heeling purposes (which he did well).

This about sums it up for what you wanted to know. As far as classes he was in "puppy kindergarten" - "basic obediance" - "Household obediance".

Thanks for your input - Ruby