You people are making me realize, last night I tried training him with some left-over hot dogs rather than his usual dried liver treats. He went totally crazy.

The reward effectively became a distraction. He had a terribly hard time concentrating on what I was telling him. He kept doing every single trick he knew (besides what I was asking him), hoping he'd get a piece of hot dog, even though I gave him simple commands I'm certain he perfectly understands.

I think I found my "next level" distraction!

 Quote: francis daigle

He kept doing every single trick he knew (besides what I was asking him), hoping he'd get a piece of hot dog, even though I gave him simple commands I'm certain he perfectly understands.

I think I found my "next level" distraction!

That's GREAT!
A suggestion: When you are doing OB sessions, try to keep any kind of correction out of it. Even if the dog is jumping up on you, it is still focused ON you, so try and re-direct that attention with luring rather than a correction. Have you done any research/reading on marking?
If you have, and are using that, what I would do is lure the desired behavior, then mark (yes, or click etc) and reward. No commands yet. Once the dog follows the lure perfectly, and does the desired behavior every time, THEN say the command, lure the behavior, mark, then treat. Every step you take is a separate thing, not simultaneous. (As in, don't mark and treat at the same time, or give command and lure at the same time) Keeping them separate allows the dog to anticipate what is next, which gets you to the next stage: You say the command, and before you can lure the dog is offering the behavior on it's own because it anticipates. THen mark, then treat, and move on.
When you move from command to command, physically move to a new spot, allowing the dog to follow after you, interested in what is next. It doesn't have to be far, just far enough that the dog gets up from whatever position it is in.
It is also a good practice to have a word for when the dog does the wrong behavior. It's not a correction, just a marker for the "wrong" behavior. So, if you want the sit, you give the command, and the dog stands there, or lays down, simply say "nope" or whatever and withhold the food reward. Something that is DIFFERENT than a verbal correction (so stay away from NO or phooey, ect) Having a marker word for the wrong behavior allows you to be essentially saying to the dog "try again" rather than having the dog lose interest in the exercise because you corrected the wrong behavior.
As for the interest, that is AWESOME. It will allow you to start over with your dog, from square one (as in, luring the sit even though he "knows" it) to establish the new rules for the game. I wouldn't worry about it being a distraction at all, I'd actually use it to be a motivation. If he goes crazy for a hotdog, then USE that to keep his interest! Any time you withhold the hotdog, he will soon be turning himself inside out to figure out what he must do to GET the hotdog!

 Quote: Francis Daigle

He kept doing every single trick he knew (besides what I was asking him), hoping he'd get a piece of hot dog, even though I gave him simple commands I'm certain he perfectly understands.

Ooooooh...... as pointed out, you are gonna looooove marker training with him! And he is gonna loooooove it too!

I too like to walk around between commands (especially when starting).

One added bonus: The dog wants very much to hear that next command, so he is looking very intently at your face to catch it (and to urge you to say it, probably).

 Quote: cameron feathers

Have you done any research/reading on marking?
If you have, and are using that, what I would do is lure the desired behavior, then mark (yes, or click etc) and reward. No commands yet. Once the dog follows the lure perfectly, and does the desired behavior every time, THEN say the command, lure the behavior, mark, then treat. Every step you take is a separate thing, not simultaneous. (As in, don't mark and treat at the same time, or give command and lure at the same time) Keeping them separate allows the dog to anticipate what is next, which gets you to the next stage: You say the command, and before you can lure the dog is offering the behavior on it's own because it anticipates. THen mark, then treat, and move on.

I did research a bit on marker training, but so far I've only using it for stuff he already knows (I give the command, I mark, then reward).

I'm using my voice (I say "ouais!", my dog is a French Canadian )

My "wrong" marker is indeed the same word as my verbal correction. But I say it with a different (very playful) intonation. I could try to find another word, but I've been working that way for several weeks now. Wouldn't that get him confused ? Now I'm wondering if I could be diminishing the effectiveness of my verbal correction this way.

 Quote: cameron feathers

A suggestion: When you are doing OB sessions, try to keep any kind of correction out of it. Even if the dog is jumping up on you, it is still focused ON you, so try and re-direct that attention with luring rather than a correction.

I've been giving "wrong" marker when he's jumping, just to let him know that he won't get anything that way. He's prompt to try something else. You think It would be better to just shut up and redirect ?

I should indeed read more on the subject. Do you know valuable resources explaining how to teach each "tricks" (sit, stay, stand, down, etc) with marker training ?

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

Ooooooh...... as pointed out, you are gonna looooove marker training with him! And he is gonna loooooove it too!

Indeed, I had been doing it with dried liver treats for a while. He did enjoy it, but he was nowhere near as enthusiast as with the hot dogs.

He liked dogs so much it was almost frustrating for me. I put him in a stand-stay and he'd just sit/down with tail wagging. When hot dogs aren't involved he just stands there waiting for what's next.

 Quote: francis daigle

... I should indeed read more on the subject. Do you know valuable resources explaining how to teach each "tricks" (sit, stay, stand, down, etc) with marker training ?

You betcha!

http://leerburg.com/302.htm

http://leerburg.com/979.htm
(Clicker training is just marker training with a clicker as the marker.)

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

 Quote: francis daigle

I did research a bit on marker training, but so far I've only using it for stuff he already knows (I give the command, I mark, then reward).

I'm using my voice (I say "ouais!", my dog is a French Canadian )

Whatever word you use doesn't matter as long as it's consistant and unique to that action/behavior
When you lure the behavior, it allows you to fine tune it until it is EXACTLY the way you want, so that when you put a command to it there is no variations... like a crooked sit, or a "hovering" sit/down, etc Marking the behavior is SO precise that you can actually teach a dog to stand with a paw in the air (by accident) if you mark it that way. Makes it rather hard to train the dog out of whatever you DON'T want. Luring THEN adding the command once it is right allows you to mark the behavior EXACTLY right the first time. The dog is already trying to figure out the puzzle, so it's pretty easy. Even if the dog already knows the commands, I'd start over, fresh. If the dog won't do the behavior close to 100% , it really isn't a trained behavior yet. Easier to just start over, and "breeze" through the commands the dog is sort of familiar with, then move from there. If he's already sort of used to the commands, it shouldn't take more than a few minutes for a day or so before you get there.

 Quote: francis daigle

My "wrong" marker is indeed the same word as my verbal correction. But I say it with a different (very playful) intonation. I could try to find another word, but I've been working that way for several weeks now. Wouldn't that get him confused ? Now I'm wondering if I could be diminishing the effectiveness of my verbal correction this way.

Actually, no, you'll be increasing the effectiveness. Having a different word is a HUGE help, because it will not only help you to stay upbeat, it will eliminate the dog losing motivation because it is getting scolded. If you use the negative/corrective word enough the dog WILL pick up that it is the same, and the effect of not correcting the dog will be lost. Basically, the dog is NEVER wrong for focusing on you, no matter what. Even if it does the "wrong" behavior, it is still trying, so it allows you to constantly be re-enforcing in a positive manner.

 Quote: cameron feathers

A suggestion: When you are doing OB sessions, try to keep any kind of correction out of it. Even if the dog is jumping up on you, it is still focused ON you, so try and re-direct that attention with luring rather than a correction.

 Quote: francis daigle

I've been giving "wrong" marker when he's jumping, just to let him know that he won't get anything that way. He's prompt to try something else. You think It would be better to just shut up and redirect ?

In a word, yes. The jumping up is excitement to do the "right" thing and get the treat. If you use a different word to mark the wrong behavior, then use that. If you continue to give a correction word, then lure the behavior you DO want and ignore the wrong one. I would also add that corrections shouldn't be a part of OB work, at least to start, unless it's for a rank/pack issue (like growling, ACTUAL biting not mouthing, etc)


Edited by Cameron Feathers (08/12/2008 07:23 PM)
Edit reason: missing quote

 Quote: francis daigle

 Quote: lynne barrows

Before you can get his attention under distraction, he needs to be able to focus on you with no distractions. Francis, have you taught 'Watch Me' yet?

Yes. It's relatively consistent... as long as I have something he wants, and there are no distractions.

I could have him heel me all day long in the house without being tethered to me. He's simply VERY reactive to distractions.

Something I'm picking up here.
You said
"It's relatively consistant... as long as I have something he wants".
Are you training with the "something he wants" in full view? That bribing the dog! You'll never get anywhere unless you learn to work with the reward in your pocket. Hidden at least!The dog has to learn that the marker means the reward is comming. If it's already in view, at this stage of training, your voiding the marker and using it as a bribe.
Go back to square one and reteach the eye contact game. Without that solid your spinning your wheels. Then work on the same thing with distractions.
Don't give in when he starts offering behaviours other then the one you asked for. That only teaches him he's running the show, not you.
Terriers will do anything you ask of them if they think they'er having fun.

The rewards are not in full view, but he knows I got them on me. My treats have a very strong smell. He associates the smell with "oooooh he's gonna ask me to do something and I'll get some of that!".

Same for his favourite prey toy (ball-on-rope with a bell inside). He knows I put it (and alot of his good stuff) on a box I put on the fridge. When I reach for that box you can bet he shows up and say "present!".

The fact that he knows that I have treats on me automatically puts him in drive. Is this a bad or a good thing ? Would it be a good idea to carry treats around and totally ignore him ? To let him know that he's not getting anything until I give him the cue that it's "work time" ?

 Quote: francis daigle

The fact that he knows that I have treats on me automatically puts him in drive. Is this a bad or a good thing ? Would it be a good idea to carry treats around and totally ignore him ? To let him know that he's not getting anything until I give him the cue that it's "work time" ?

Not necessarily...

Here's the thing. If you are not luring him through an exercise (do you know what I mean by luring?) then the treat should not be visible. Luring is for when you are FIRST showing the dog what you want him to do, to coax him into the position so you can mark it.

One thing to keep in mind is that just because the dog does the behavior you want when a treat is present does not mean that he knows what you want when it is not. A dog will recognize physical movements quicker than verbal commands. This is why you have to keep YOUR movements to a minimum, and not progress until the dog DOES understand the verbal command/hand signal. You standing there luring with a treat is way different than you standing further upright, giving the command.

It LOOKS different.

This is another reason it really helps to break everything down the way I described earlier.

Once the dog does the behavior correctly with luring, start saying the command, PAUSE then lure. With a dog responding as quickly as you have said, it will not take long at ALL before the dog is doing the behavior faster than you can lure, and right after the command, to try and skip to the reward faster. Once you are there, start pausing longer before luring, and when the dog offers the behavior, use your marker (word or clicker) to let the dog know that the behavior is right, and reward is coming. Keep doing the repetition like this until you are SURE the dog has it down.

When you have the sit (or whatever command) down, it will look similar to this:
command (I'll use sit here)
dog sits (or stares at you)
if the dog sits, mark it (yes! or clicker) if the dog does NOT sit, DON'T MOVE. Stand there and wait.

As long as the dog is still paying attention to you, wait. If it takes longer than a few seconds for the dog to offer the behavior, you may have progressed too fast and you may need to go back to luring for a little while longer.

AFTER you mark the behavior, THEN you reach for your treat and then feed. Don't have it readily available in your hand, OR have your hand away from the dogs' nose so it is separate and not a lure/distraction.

Also - when you give the marker, it is essentially a release, so the dog will be free to get up, start jumping, whatever. If you want the dog to hold the position or you want to start stretching out how many commands you do before you reward, then DON'T use the marker. (use another word) ONLY use the marker when the reward will be next.

Also, ANY time the dog doesn't do the behavior, wait or use the marker for the wrong behavior. When the dog corrects itself, or offers the right behavior, mark and reward.

The way you're describing what your dog does, it doesn't *sound* like it is ready to move past luring yet, because I don't think the dog understands what earns a reward yet. Once it DOES understand there will be a very obvious response, and you may also see the dog running up and sitting in front of you ANY time it wants something. Hope that makes sense.

One other thing... have you ever given thought to putting treats in MANY locations in your house? That way you can do small short OB sessions in many places in your house without having to go to that one spot.

The reason I ask is because asking a dog to sit in one room can sometimes be seen as WAY different (to a dog) than asking them to sit on the back porch, etc.

Sometimes we assume the dog is "distracted" when the dog doesn't understand the same rules apply. Dogs don't usually generalize so just because it means sit here doesn't mean that it means sit out here, or on the street...