Quote: Connie Sutherland

Andrew, how many years did it take you to realize you had no ob control over your pack?

That fits right in with what you have done in the O.P. here, and each of these replies is on point:

- I can not imagine a less responsible action than to expose one of your dogs, forget two, to the possibility, repeated for emphasis 'the possibility' of an aggressive dog. Incredible. On what planet is such a 'training' or 'dog assessment' approach used?

- You took two bitches to beat him down in his own home!

- You asked for insights. Well, one might be to leave your dogs home when you are helping some one assess an aggressive dog. Another might be to seriously consider some of the opinions of the seasoned posters who have responded to you. Yet another might be to think about the possibility that you are, perhaps, not fully competent to help others with their dog issues.

- If you live for your dogs, how could you occasion your dogs to such a situation?

- You are the last person that should be giving anyone training advise. In fact the thought of that seriously worries me.

- The owner of the dogs should join the board and post her questions. ... I hope she does. I know she will get help. I hope that you encourage her to do so.

- To walk into another dog's house with a strange dog(s) is an invite for disaster.

AND YOU LEFT YOUR DOG THERE! FOR A WEEK.





http://leerburg.com/webboard/thread.php?topic_id=32569&page=26#374778
On 03/10 you finally posted that you had started to understand that you had no control over your own pack and you "listened intently to everything she said and did. We went through very basic commands."

And then you did this: "I took my dog over to .... help introduce the two with no problems and left the owner with a list of commands that she had now been taught."

YOU LEFT YOUR DOG IN THE HOME OF A PERSON WHO WAS HAVING PROBLEMS WITH HER DOG! YOU LEFT YOUR DOG TO "TRAIN" HER DOG. FOR A WEEK.

".... when asked by one of the breed club's committee members if they could borrow one of my dogs to help influence the sociability of their male dog by having one of my dogs go and stay in the home of the dog so that they could go out together I had no problem in saying yes and choosing the young female as the one to use. I took my dog over to the male dog owners house help introduce the two with no problems and left the owner with a list of commands that she had now been taught."

The lady owner is someone I do trust and know has had many dogs and rescued many too some with severe issues.Additionally I know each of my dogs very well and whilst I accept thier level obedience is not of the standard most here believe is essential tho have improved on this issue ,my knowledge of each of my dogs from a point of thier character traits and likely behaviours to exposure to most anything is ,I believe,quite accurate.

Yes I left my dog there or a whole week and the dogs bonded very well in a short time and at no time was their any unwanted issues.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/031_zpscb618b7c.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/030_zpsa34b370c.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/033_zps5452d3c4.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/034_zps3697fdb7.jpg

Must have been luck perhaps.

Andrew, you mentioned that your bond with your dogs is strong, and that you believe that you can read them in any situation.

I am all about the bond with my dogs as well- I don't start to even work them until we have a positive bond established. BUT the bond that we have is based largely on the dog's trust in me to not put her in a dangerous situtation- the dog's trust in me as her LEADER to keep her safe.

Taking my dog to a home where she doesn't know the person, in a home with a dog that I don't know.. and LEAVING her there... in my OPINION that's NOT being a safe leader to your dog.

And, while I can read MY dogs like a book, and know what they are thinking based on body language, I don't ever claim to be able to read a STRANGE dog at all.

Some postures are universal, but others are specific to ONE DOG. When my Mal Toni drops her left ear, she's thinking about getting into something (ie countersurf).. when her littermate Caterina does it, it means her ear itches and she's getting ready to roll.

When Toni is feeling threatend and is about to take action, her ears get "tighter" and she holds them higher on her head. It's a very subtle change. I know it and can stop her, but do you think that you would be able to read that very subtle clue that my dog is getting ready to bite? No, because you DON'T KNOW MY DOG.

Just like you didn't know the dog in the home that your dog was supposed to "influence." The lady in the home doesn't know YOUR dog, and your dog should not have been left with someone that can't read her body language...

All just my opinion of course.. based on years of working and rehabilitating aggressive dogs. Take it for what it is... I shan't be adding any more to this thread.

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

" ... it is not possible to give 100% accurate advice based on written words or even short video clips,this can only be done when actually meeting the dog/s and their owner within their own enviroment and only a flavour of perception can be taken from poster's posts and the replies from posters given in response to them."


I 100% do not believe that an experienced dog trainer told you that it was a good plan to leave your dog for a week to be some kind of example to a dog with aggression issues.

When you went to see a trainer and were finally told that you had no ob control over your pack, this echoed what you had been told here over and over and over. You took in this information and began to ob train your dogs .... excellent!

Then this bit of irresponsibility, rivaled only by some of your "off leash pack in public" early
videos.

I did say obedience never mentioned anything about control nor did the trainer .She was impressed at the bond we had ,which in itself does not give control but obviously I had done training with the dogs els they would not walk on eash corretly or sit and down and go to their bed just not the sort of obdience done by most here in a way that was rcognised or taught in classes using universally recognised methods and practices but it was our close bond already in place that made training them in the few things required by me alot easier than normal in a shorter time with the dogs able to pick up easily what I was trying to get them to do using the "formal" methods shown to me by the professional.I am sure they will win no prizes or certificates in obedience but that was not my aim ,I just wanted that extra control mainly on the recall .

 Quote: Kelly

Andrew, you mentioned that your bond with your dogs is strong, and that you believe that you can read them in any situation.

I am all about the bond with my dogs as well- I don't start to even work them until we have a positive bond established. BUT the bond that we have is based largely on the dog's trust in me to not put her in a dangerous situtation- the dog's trust in me as her LEADER to keep her safe.

Taking my dog to a home where she doesn't know the person, in a home with a dog that I don't know.. and LEAVING her there... in my OPINION that's NOT being a safe leader to your dog.

And, while I can read MY dogs like a book, and know what they are thinking based on body language, I don't ever claim to be able to read a STRANGE dog at all.

Some postures are universal, but others are specific to ONE DOG. When my Mal Toni drops her left ear, she's thinking about getting into something (ie countersurf).. when her littermate Caterina does it, it means her ear itches and she's getting ready to roll.

When Toni is feeling threatend and is about to take action, her ears get "tighter" and she holds them higher on her head. It's a very subtle change. I know it and can stop her, but do you think that you would be able to read that very subtle clue that my dog is getting ready to bite? No, because you DON'T KNOW MY DOG.

Just like you didn't know the dog in the home that your dog was supposed to "influence." The lady in the home doesn't know YOUR dog, and your dog should not have been left with someone that can't read her body language...

All just my opinion of course.. based on years of working and rehabilitating aggressive dogs. Take it for what it is... I shan't be adding any more to this thread.

I love the way you pick up on the smallest thing and understand what it means and are able to use your observations to determin what it means.This may sound wierd strange whatever,but I ense the state of my dogs mind but not from any physical signals just my feelings,I'm not sure if I am desribing it correctly but is more a sense than an observaion

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

"We call this system Marker Training. It has evolved into main stream dog training here in America since the early 1990's. Like many trainers I was slow to embrace the concepts of marker training. I had been training dogs for 30 years when marker training first started. I spent the 1990's telling people it was stupid. Well the only stupid one was myself because I never took the time to really study the training system and learned how to apply it to the areas of dog training I had an interest in." ... Need I say more.


How does marker training relate to dropping your dog off at the home of a person with a problem dog and leaving her there for a week?





"Not assess influence the social interaction of the dog "


By leaving your dog, who recently acquired a few basic ob commands, at the home of the problem dog?

Nothing it was only relevant to he post I was replying to and I thought I would use a quote from the site to explain what I wanted to get across.

http://leerburg.com/markers.htm

Perhaps if posters ,other than saying luck,can impart thier knowledge and explain why the two dogs got on so well without issues despite one of the dogs being owned by me ,will be educational.Because agree or not one of my dogs did go to a strangers home ,left there without me,with a strange dog with some issues and all survived unscaved and did co exist harmoiously and this did not happen over alot of time or effort at least not on my part and as you can see they were not kept seperately

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u165/bosscat69/031_zpscb618b7c.jpg


.Obviously it is easier to express points to the contrary and they may be correct .

 Quote: andrew harris

... I did say obedience never mentioned anything about control nor did the trainer .

QUOTE: On her visit I had an eureka moment when during her consultation she explained that as well behaved as the dogs were when she met them I didn't actually control them from a point of conventional obedience training. END QUOTE

You didn't actually control them in any way. We saw them with the horse in the field. We saw the complete absence of reliable recall. We saw you cheer them on while they bullied a visiting dog who all but begged for intervention from you.

Each of these triggered suggestions about gaining control of your pack on your own property and ending the excursions in public with too much dog and not enough handler.

Andrew;

I (and the others) never questioned the bond that you have with your pack, and your understanding of their feelings. There is no doubt that it is very helpful when you begin to teach your dogs obedience. I knew that from the outset.

It doesn't take an expert to recognize some of the bad choices you have made in regards to the situations that you put them in. This is reflected here in the echoing of certain snippets of advice that you have received. If you travel in circles of experienced people, the painfully obvious will be readily apparent to all.

Many of us here are every bit as flexible as Ed is in the post that you quoted. Not many of us will ever be open to believing that you have some subliminal control over your pack based solely on your intimate connection with them, including the author of the quote that you provided. As I said once before, IMO, that is flake philosophy. Most experienced dog trainers, handlers, and owners know that communicating with dogs requires more understanding than a deep, emotional connection.

I have a very deep, intimate bond with my dog, a good sense of her feelings, and a level of anticpation of her reactions based on how well I know her, giving me an ability to read her. That does not mean that I expect others to feel safe if they see us coming with her off-leash. That in no way implies that I expect her to feel safe when left in the care of strangers with strange dogs.

The biggest issue that I have personally with your understanding of your pack, going back to the very first videos that you posted, is your inability to understand and read how they are impacting the other dogs that were visiting your home. Not only do you need to be able to read your own dogs, but you need to recognize behavior in the ousider dogs that is indicating stress, and you have consistently shown no desire to take that into account.

You were in the habit of letting your dogs walk off-leash in a pack. You may think that other people were not scared when they saw this. Your confidence may even have been bolstered by a supportive remark here or there. However, were you observing to see how many people crossed the street or turned and walked in another direction when they saw your pack coming?

If your friend with the problem dog had seen the videos showing how intimidated your guests were, I, for one, don't believe she would have been open to your style of letting your pack "influence" the behavior of non-pack members.

Call it what you want. That situation could just as easily have resulted in a bad outcome. It did not work out, by YOUR OWN ACCOUNT,through any administration of your own. So the dogs had a nice visit, and the dog you love so much was not bothered by being abandoned by you for a week.

What does that prove? Educate US.

eta...what knowledge do you have about how I train my dog? Where do YOU think I learned to train her, or any of my animals?

Edited by Duane Hull (03/17/2013 06:08 PM)
Edit reason: eta

 Quote: Connie Sutherland

 Quote: andrew harris

... I did say obedience never mentioned anything about control nor did the trainer .

QUOTE: On her visit I had an eureka moment when during her consultation she explained that as well behaved as the dogs were when she met them I didn't actually control them from a point of conventional obedience training. END QUOTE

You didn't actually control them in any way. We saw them with the horse in the field. We saw the complete absence of reliable recall. We saw you cheer them on while they bullied a visiting dog who all but begged for intervention from you.

Each of these triggered suggestions about gaining control of your pack on your own property and ending the excursions in public with too much dog and not enough handler.

Perhaps it's a language barrier and lost in translation but does it not say "as well behaved" and "I didn't actually control them from a point of conventional obedience training"(and not that they aren't controlled at all)
the latter implying I did control but not in a universally recognised form.Perhaps its just the way I write means I don't convey what I think it does