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My working/protection dogs are never trained with treats
Why would I start something I'd only have to correct later
Food Refusal
Training without treats gives them kind of an edge
Even in tracking I start them on someone they want to find
The retreive I do a hold & come, but not til after they have a good bite
Why would I make retreiving fun, for someone to offer a ball and become their best friend
I use what I call cardio reward

A dog can be taught food refusal AND still use treats in training. I train it as a distraction when I start on competition heeling. The dog is never allowed to go to a dropped treat. Which means the dog needs to continue focusing on me when treats are bouncing off its head. The only problem I've had with this is one dog was reluctant and nervous to track.

I feel that food is required with dogs in the initial stages of training to get accurate and enthusiastic reponses in obedience positions.

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Why would I make retreiving fun

Silly me. I thought dog training is fun (for me and the dog). I must be mistaken.... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

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I also agree that there is a huge benefit from switching up the treats and saving 1 or 2 treats as THE ULTIMATE reward.

Definately! I generally train with Charlee Bears, except during agility -- my dog will not actually try to chew the treats in such a fast-paced activity, and will then stop mid-sequence to cough them up and 'try again'. Attractive. Anyway, I just keep a good-sized Gladware tub of them and buy the big bags whenever they're on sale at the chain pet stores.

I use soft treats in agility, and for big bonuses during 'trick' training and obedience. I'm a big BilJac liver fan, and I also buy the silly steak-shaped treats and that kind of thing at the major chains -- not the semi-moist stuff filled with dyes and crap, but the bagged treats. She only gets a limited amount of those sorts of treats, though -- most of her treats are Charlees.

I absolutely agree. I cut the treats into pieces a little bigger than a pea to avoid too much chewing. Her favorites are poached chicken breast and turkey hot dogs. I microwave the hot dogs pieces between paper towels to dry them out a bit. I don't mind holding these treats in my mouth for rewarding her that way either. She is very reliable on food refusal even when on long down with other dogs and me at a distance. She knows the difference.

I used to like the Bil-Jack liver treats until I read the ingredients! Since then I stopped using them. My absolute favorite thing to use is calves liver. ( Thanks to Deanna for showing me how much my dog would flip out for them!!!!)

I buy a package and put some water in a pan and steam them on both sides until the stuff is cooked all the way through and the water in the pan dries out. By then it is a little tougher, and then I use kitchen scissors to cut the liver slices into tiny little pieces. My dog goes absolutely nuts for this....but then again, she has an extremely high food drive! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

"For pet dogs I use (clicker) bribery
dog food with fish oil for average training
cheese, chicken hotdogs, left over cold cuts, steak for behaviors that are a priority
Retreive is developed through play training
This style seems to create a gentler, kinder companion for the green or novice handler, with less behavior and aggression problems"

Dear Anne
This is the other half of my thread
I'm sure you just missed it

There is a big difference between training a dog and finishing a dog
A finished dog has a sense of responsibility towards their work
Their work is their reward
Whether it's hunting, herding, protecting or assissting those with special needs

What I'm talking about is proofing a dogs training
In linear thinking, when training a dog, after you've done it time and time again, you start to realize the things that will come back to haunt you
And you learn to streamline information on a need to know basis, and the correct order of presentation, of that information, to your dog

You have in fact agreed with me when you stated correcting your dog in the ring for wanting to pick up food on the ground made your dog nervous when you began to introduce tracking
I'm sure you and your dog will overcome this hurdle

May I also suggest some interesting reading on retreiving
"Hunting Retreivers" by Tarrant
or Wolters "Game Dog" or "Water Dog"

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"For pet dogs I use (clicker) bribery
dog food with fish oil for average training
cheese, chicken hotdogs, left over cold cuts, steak for behaviors that are a priority
Retreive is developed through play training
This style seems to create a gentler, kinder companion for the green or novice handler, with less behavior and aggression problems"

Dear Anne
This is the other half of my thread
I'm sure you just missed it

There is a big difference between training a dog and finishing a dog
A finished dog has a sense of responsibility towards their work
Their work is their reward
Whether it's hunting, herding, protecting or assissting those with special needs

What I'm talking about is proofing a dogs training
In linear thinking, when training a dog, after you've done it time and time again, you start to realize the things that will come back to haunt you
And you learn to streamline information on a need to know basis, and the correct order of presentation, of that information, to your dog

You have in fact agreed with me when you stated correcting your dog in the ring for wanting to pick up food on the ground made your dog nervous when you began to introduce tracking
I'm sure you and your dog will overcome this hurdle

May I also suggest some interesting reading on retreiving
"Hunting Retreivers" by Tarrant
or Wolters "Game Dog" or "Water Dog"

Hi, John,

I use treats and praise (sometimes tugs, depending on the work) for the teaching phase.

There are no treats (except for the distraction use that Ann Vaini mentions) after that, until a new teaching phase starts. There is praise, though!

But I can't reply any more definitively to your posts; there are no periods in them (and the haiku line was great! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> and I'm not sure where each line begins and ends. Could you use periods and write in sentences?

I am not attacking. When I realized that you were posting regularly, I had to speak.

Of course, whether or not I am distracted by your punctuation style may not be a top priority for you..... <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

John,
I have to disagree with your quote:
"There is a big difference between training a dog and finishing a dog
A finished dog has a sense of responsibility towards their work
Their work is their reward
Whether it's hunting, herding, protecting or assissting those with special needs"

You are attributing human emotions/thinking patteren to canines, and it doesn't apply.
No canine "has a sense of responsibility towards their work" - that just doesn't apply to the canine psyche in any way, shape, or form.

A pattern of behavior that is rewarded will continue. A behavior pattern that is not rewarded will dampen over time.
It's simple, but that's the thought process of a canine.

At what age would you expect a dog to be finished?

When do the Seeing Eye people place a dog?
At what age and what level of training, does the Lab have to have before it is an asset in the hunt
When is the herder ready, an asset around stock?
At what age is a protective breed mature enough that their behavior is imprinted and the training will be part of the character of the dog?

Can the training be dampen, yes, but in my experience, it is the people that need to be supported/trained
With a gentle reminder the dogs conditioning will be
re-awakened, if it was imprinted correctly in the first place

Aren’t a smile and a gentle touch reward enough?
It seems to be enough, when you consider the pet owners out there, who create a lot of behavior problems they never intended to!

I sell lots of trained adults (hunting, herding & protection)
There is always a very careful transfer period
Most owners trade up, as their handling skills advance
I'm always prepared to take one of my dogs back
Never seen one get ruined or stupid, just fat!

I am new to this site
It was never my intention to offend anyone
My beliefs, well they're just my beliefs
My way is not the right way, it's just my way
I am not closed to learning, but please; don't ask me to take a step backwards
The polite thing I believe, is to agree to disagree

I stand by my original post
Sometimes I use food for reward and sometimes I don't!

hi everyone,

i was originally going to start a new thread to ask this question (i've been dying to ask it but i had some registration troubles), but this thread seems a relevant place for it.

i got my puppy in the winter, and she absolutely adored the snow, she would eat gallons of it if allowed outside in it that long. we discovered recently that she loves ice as well (as it fell out of the machine when being put into a cup, she'd scoop the pieces up and chew on them). now when you put ice in a cup, she will actually sit for it, so it struck me that she might enjoy it as a treat for good obedience (i don't know whether i'm thinking of what she would like, or my pocket though <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

is this bad? i know that ice is often terribly tough, but that dog's teeth are made for crushing through bone, so i have no idea whether it's safe to use ice cubes as treats.

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.....she absolutely adored the snow, she would eat gallons of it if allowed outside in it that long. we discovered recently that she loves ice as well (as it fell out of the machine when being put into a cup, she'd scoop the pieces up and chew on them). now when you put ice in a cup, she will actually sit for it, so it struck me that she might enjoy it as a treat for good obedience (i don't know whether i'm thinking of what she would like, or my pocket though <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

is this bad? i know that ice is often terribly tough, but that dog's teeth are made for crushing through bone, so i have no idea whether it's safe to use ice cubes as treats.

Well, my first reaction would be to think it might not be a good plan. But when I Googled it, I came up with all sites that said positive things about dogs enjoying ice.

On Care2.com, for example:
"Pets that are sensitive to heat need to drink a lot of water, especially during the summer months. The problem is that the body's thirst mechanism ins't always as sensitive as it should be, so pets may not drink all the water they really need. To encourage them to drink more, Dr. Harrison recommends giving them ice chips or ice cubes throughout the day. Many pets like crunching ice, and it helps get extra fluids into their systems."