I agree with Lou, and would like to add something. Ruby, don't beat yourself up over this. Probably you did nothing wrong, and at least the story has a happy ending. Glad to hear your new dog is working out well, and I doubt you will ever have a dog like the one you had again.

Sorry, don't know how this got posted twice. Duh!

Hello again,

J. Parker, yes you did answer what you would of done. I just listed names as the posts came in, sorry!

After my methods of severe correction did not work with Riesz I did change methods. Our trainer gave me this direction and suggested a couple of different things. Riesz did have to earn everything he wanted from food to toys. There was no more yelling or physical contact exept to lead him to his crate where he could think about what he did wrong.

Riesz was often given commands when he did his "mexican stand off" with me. The commands did not work and he never heard a word I said. He had this glazed look about his eyes as if he were zoned out somewhere else. I also did what Ellen mentioned, with the food and bringing a ball into the situation for him later on down the road.

I also tried diversion with him to get his mind off of "attack mode" but this really didn't work either.

After reading Ellens post I wondered if her friend Kevin knew Riesz. Her post is exactly, and I mean exactly how Riesz was.
I don't know how often that particular dog was "rolled" or how often he acted up. Riesz's most severe correction was when I hung him until submission. Riesz was not like this all the time and maybe every 2 weeks something happened. Yes, I do know what Ellen felt, as I never had that kind of adrenalin rush in my life as I did the first time it happened to me and I will never forget that feeling. Making your skin crawl isn't even close to the actual feeling.
This too was the first time I have ever been terrified of a dog, let alone my own.

Richard - you ask about Riesz chewing. Riesz did not need supervised for chewing. He didn't do this until he was older and this was also a speratic moment he had. Within a matter of seconds the wall-paper was off the wall. I walked thru the kitchen he was laying down. Not more than 3 minutes passed and walked back - it was gone! Kind of hard to keep your walls away from your dog along with the chair! LOL. Never chewed the normal stuff - shoes, papers, etc...

Steffen - Riesz along with all our other dogs were basically raised with our hands in their feeding dish. I was able to put a cookie, chip, pretzel, or whatever in my mouth and they would take it from my mouth like a baby taking candy! I never reached the point of letting Riesz control me. Yes, I was a little apprehensive taking things away from him and playing with his food dish but I was so determined to not let him see my fear so I never stopped it. I just figured I was due for some stitches whether Riesz sent me to get them or not. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Believe me, our breeder did not believe what Riesz was capable of until she had a "first hand experience with him". My husband almost passed out on me from the last episode we had with Riesz from fear, I could almost actually see the blood drain from his body.

Anyways, I appreciate every ones opinions, thoughts and replies. I just wish I would of posted on the board when this was all going on. When I did post on other boards about it the response was relatively negative and not structured like this board. Every one came to the concensus that he should of been put down. I am soooo glad I didn't take there advise!!!

In closing, I finally did get to speak to one of the trainers today that handled Riesz. I was told that many trainers handled him not just one. He was everything they wanted in a ppd. His new owner also worked with the trainer over a period of time to be able to handle Riesz. There are only certain people Riesz can be around. He is always put back when strangers are over and he is not a pet!
When I asked if I could speak directly to the main handler I was more or less brushed off.
I explained to them that I still was concerned about his outcome and wanted to know how he was doing. I also could not figure out why he didn't want to speak to me. One would think that a trainer would like to know as much as possible about the background of the dog to be trained. Personally, this doesn't say much for him. I would think, considering I am a potential client that he would of taken the time to talk to me. After talking to the one trainer I get the impression that Riesz is still a little unstable! I really appreciate everyone's input. There are so many variables with Riesz I guess we just can't pinpoint just one. I agree that to analize this over the net is really asking allot if not impossible unless everyone was to see Riesz in person and see his behavior a fair judgement probably couldn't be made. So I guess I will stop kicking a dead horse and move on with my precious girl that I now have. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Thanks to all and if I ever have a problem with another GSD you guys and gals will be the first ones I contact! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> - Ruby

Ruby,

Definitely don't beat yourself up on this. This dog is not a PPD, it is a junk yard dog....much different. I would guess that the reason they won't talk to you about him is that he is not doing as well as they are trying to tell you. I think a Vet missed something somewhere. Or it was just a bad dog...not bad breeding just a bad dog. It happens. The only other concern I have is the breeder does not do any training. I would consider this a problem as the training process gives you a lot of information about the dogs temperament.

I am the first to say that the trainer "on the ground" is the one to listen to. No irreversable descisions should be made without a competent trainer looking at the dog.

Personally I keep a dog in sight until they are at least one year old and then only allow them access to the house unsupervised after they are 1 1/2, and only for short periods of time at that point. It is a pain, but it goes a long way to prevent problems.

My perosnally feeling is that the way to understand how we should relate to domestic animals is to observe how those animals relate to one another. I have horses and cattle as well as dogs. I see my horses kick and bite each other when they have conflcit. They dont engage in introspection, conflicit resoloution classes, anger managment or what ever. They just kick each other and thats the end of it, they dont feel any guilt over it or worry what PETA will think. SO when one of my horses goes to bite me or crowds my space I just let go and kick them in the guts. Sound cruel? Why thats what the horses do in the same situation so they undertand when I do it. Same with dogs, we have 6 dogs. They dont have much problem with biting one another, Im sure if they could one of them would hog all the food whilst the other starved to death around it. Thats a dogs nature, anone who thing any different is simply projecting their feeling onto animals. Why all the analysis with this dog? Its laid down a challenge to its mistress, its said Im taking over this pack and your playing second fiddle to me sweet heart. My feeling is that if a dog wants to throw down the gauntlet you ought to pick it up and treat it exactly as the pack leader would. NO fruedian style analysis, did you mumy put you on the toilet the wrong way around and all that bullshit. Choke him until he blacks out every time he dares to show aggression towards you.

Dogs fight to the death over pack heirarchy issues, touchy feely analysis, why are you behavinglike this doesnt come into it. One dog challenges the other and the challenged dog decides to either roll over and cop it on the chin or he says screw you lets fight this out.

Hey Vince,

After reading Brendan's post, I guess we don't seem so macho anymore!LOL

 Quote:

Choke him until he blacks out every time he dares to show aggression towards you. . . .Dogs fight to the death over pack heirarchy issues, touchy feely analysis, why are you behaving like this doesn't come into it. One dog challenges the other and the challenged dog decides to either roll over and cop it on the chin or he says screw you lets fight this out.

Brendan <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> you are right as usual about dogs & psychoanalysis and dogs and heirarchy issues. The problem is that in the real wild kingdom of packdom a dog with a real alpha personality in a pack that has a strong, powerful alpha male already well-established in command the cost of taking over the #1 position is too high (he'd lose or die). In this case(wild) the challenging alpha would either leave or be driven off to form his own pack. In domestic situations a dog with a real alpha personality vying for the top spot that won't be reliquished by the human alpha has no place else to go.

What happens in that kind of situation? IMO the #2 (if he is a REAL alpha personality) will always be waiting & watching for the opportunity to get rid of #1. This is not a pleasant situation for #1(human) to be in. In Ruby's case it may actually explain why Riesz's attacks were so seemingly unpredictable & random -- to Riesz perhaps they were only golden opportunities in his eyes to get rid of Ruby when her guard was down. If I were #1 with a dog like that, I don't think I would want to live that way -- God knows I'm paranoid enough anyway <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> .

So what do you do? 1)Get rid of the dog. 2)Sleep with a gun in your hand <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> . 3)Try to figure out a way to make #1 dog #1 human's right-hand "man" that carries with it all the "respect" of that position in the dog's eyes.

Let's choose #3 for sake of discussion -- which was the way my friend Kevin chose to train his #1 alpha-personality dog which I described in my prior post. That way(#3) the dog learns to feel connected to the alpha in a cooperative way as opposed to an adversarial way. Unfortunately IMO this set up wouldn't work in a socially active, gregarious household situation because the dog would have to always be under the direct supervision of #1 (not always possible). However, this set up would work in a professional situation like police work.

So IMO Ruby did the right thing for her & the dog -- gave it back to the breeder where it was placed in a PPD environment.

BUT that doesn't mean I disagree with Brendan -- he's probably a better shot than I am <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> -- it just means that if I were a 95 pound Ruby, I wouldn't want to drag a "hangin' tree" around with me all the time in case I had to give the dog an attitude adjustment.

Chuck wrote:
"Vince: After reading Brendan's post, I guess we don't seem so macho anymore!LOL"

Don't knock yourselves down, guys <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> . Brendan has geographical advantage--Australian outback is not exactly New Jersey! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> If the three of you ever have a stand off, could I be the judge, please? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Ellen, you are right, as usual. Except in Riesz's case I tend to agree with Richard. This is not a PPD, this is a junk yard dog--the fact that he needs to be put away when company arrives speaks for itself... :rolleyes:

I agree with Ellen and Renee. I'm not about to physically fight with my dog. If I can't gain his respect by outsmarting him, then this is not a dog that I should have around. Leadership is in the mind. I wouldn't want to be constantly looking over my shoulder in case he decides to try and take me down! That's ridiculous! By establishing a physically adversarial relationship with a dominant dog, this is exactly what you're asking for. That might be fine for a big macho dude, but for this 120lb woman, I'd rather use my brains....

Anyway, I just wanted to say that the more info that Ruby gives about this dog, the more I tend to think that Riesz is just nuts. IMHO, any dog that you can't outsmart into respecting you without having to hang him, there is something wrong with.

NOOOOO way! I watch the crocodile hunter. That dude is crazy. I aint messin with Brendan!LOL
Seriously, I agree with what Brendan writes. Realisticaly though, this is not something that the average pet ownwer is capable of doing. J Parker hit the nail on the head. Why should you have to worry everyday if you might have to fight your pet dog or not? This is something for more experienced hands, which is what Ruby did. Good Posts guys and gals.