Hi

just wonderin coz im into workinglies as well however i asked myself ,what is really the difference of showline from working if the showline dogs in germany are required to have sch3 before they can be bred and considering that in schutzhund you are required to TRACK,BITE and exhibit prey drive as well..Arent they considered WORKING as well?dont we just have a subtle thin line which differentiate our dogs from the showlines? just what can the workingline do in which the showline can not?

Hopefully, my post won't start a war. In my opinion, allot of showline breeders do just the minimum to get their dogs titled. They put club titles with friendly judges in order to breed. Also too many show breeders pick dogs for structure rather than temperament and drive. That's not to say you can't find a showline dog that can actually work. They are out there but hard to find. You don't see many showline dogs doing high level schutzhund. Watch the bitework difference between the BSP,WUSV,FCI(dominated by workinglines) and BZSZ dominated by showlines. There's a huge difference in speed and intensity.

The problem here is with Schutzhund as much as it is with the breeders of showlines.

It is very easy to title a weak dog in Schutzhund, it is more about training the dog to look passable to a judge, than it is about having a great dog. On top of which, they also hold special trials geared at showline dogs with relaxed judging. Dogs look like crap, but they are "technically" correct so get a passing score. Alot of weak and crappy dogs can earn Sch titles.

In the show world, people breed for looks (obviously) and it is understood that a dog needs to title in "work" before he can breed more pretty show puppies. This means there is alot of money involved...... so lets just say, when there is money involved, there are ways to title less than stellar dogs in Sch.

Showlines, even the ones who are titled, are often very nervey, act spooky around strange situations, new people, new areas etc. They have been taught to hold onto a sleeve, but I have seen maybe 1 or 2 showlines who would actually bite someone "for real".

This is what you get when you breed specifically for appearance, rather than working abilities.

When it comes to working lines, the dogs dont have to be comformationally correct or "pretty" as long as they can do the work. The dogs have more drive, more dominance, more aggression, quicker, more agile, harder etc. Ofcourse, there are crappy working lines out there too, it is hard to find a good dog.

The difference between a showline and a work line is night and day. Titles don't mean squat. The best dogs I have seen would not score well in sport at all, because it takes alot of control to make a dog perform to the perfect standards Schutzhund looks for. The tougher, harder and more dominant a dog is, the harder it becomes to train the dog for top level competition. In sport, people tend to look for an easier dog that is more willing to follow direction and "play the game".

As one who learned of Schutzhund sport via the show line angle, and as the owner of 2 showline dogs, I agree generally with what the others have said. In terms of top performance Schuzhund 3 level work, it's WAY easier to find a capable working line than a capable show line.

Sadly, I think a large part of the deterioration in working ability in the show lines has been driven by the German SV Conformation Judges and the master organizations is the USA such as the GSDCA-WDA and the United Schutzhund Clubs of America. The breeders aren't the only ones to blame in this sad story. The breeders tend to breed what the judges are rewarding, and I believe that both of these master GSD organizations just keep lookin' the other way.

I am very happy to know a handful of trainers/breeders in the US who hold their breeding programs to higher standards, and are trying to make a difference. Not surprisingly, these people tend to own and/or train both working and show lines.

I think there is plenty to criticize in the working lines too. There is plenty of breeding going on with both sides of the fence that is genetically frightening, and irresponsible. Let the buyer beware.

Dave Blank's biggest piece of advice to folks around here who are thinking of buying a dog or puppy, or wanting to evaluate blood lines, etc. for breeding (and this advice extends beyond the GSD breed). WATCH THE PARENTS WORK. He doesn't trust titles and blood lines on paper very much. He either wants to personally see the work in any dog he is considering buying, or for his breeding program. Or he wants someone he implicitly trusts to watch. And that's a pretty short list of people.

We are happy with both of our show line dogs. But this is a hobby for us. We learned so much with Kimba, and had a LOT of fun collecting shiny plastic objects with her in the show ring. And we learned a LOT about the limitations (in a general sense) of show line dogs that are talked about here as we pursued her SchH1 title. Ferguson has turned out to be an excellent beginner/intermediate level first SchH dog for Gary. While his drives are naturally through the roof on the surface, he has turned out to have an incredibally even and solid temperament - he can tolerate LOTS of beginner handler mistakes without a problem. IMO, that is a valuable quality in a dog for a beginner SchH handler.

So much of the pressure in the show lines is to have titles (and I mean SchH3 titles) by the time the dogs (especially males) are two years old. This is another flaw in the way things are done, IMO. Often what might look like a really weak performing dog can be related to being pushed too hard, too soon. I would submit that very few GSDs - working lines or show lines, are mentally mature enough for true, full pressured SchH3 level work at 2 years old. I often wonder what some of these dogs would be if they had been brought along in accordance with their maturity level rather than a breeding time schedule.

OK - now I'm rambling. But I'm happy to offer as objective of opinions as I can about the show line side of things. I feel very blessed to be able to watch both side of this...week in and week out. Along with some other breeds too.

Beth

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

but I have seen maybe 1 or 2 showlines who would actually bite someone "for real".

Mike, its too bad you didn't get a chance to see Johnny's dog work before you left. I think you would have been impressed. I agree with you about show lines dogs that bite for real being as rare as hens teeth but this show line is very strong. I'm no Will Rambeau but this dog has taken every bit of pressure I am capable of putting on him and he never falters. The sad part is that he is only about 5 1/2 years old and his show lines breeding is already apparent in that his physical capabilities are beginning to wane because of the way he is built. As much as Johhny loves his dog (Its his first PSD) he can't wait to get a working lines dog. Even a newbie like him can see the difference.

Howard

 Quote: mike j schoonbrood

In the show world, people breed for looks (obviously) and it is understood that a dog needs to title in "work" before he can breed more pretty show puppies..

I'm going to delve further into hot water by saying that if the showline are breeding for looks they are failing miserably. The structure of the showlines in general are horrible, there is nothing pretty about them at all, (of course there are exceptions) but IMHO they are getting as far off the spectrum as the American shepherds. Now we have ugly dogs that can't work either.

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Ofcourse, there are crappy working lines out there too, it is hard to find a good dog.

Very true.

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The breeders aren't the only ones to blame in this sad story. The breeders tend to breed what the judges are rewarding, and I believe that both of these master GSD organizations just keep lookin' the other way.

If people stopped breeding dogs like this, then the judges would be forced to change their judging. The problem is that show breeders fall into 3 categories:

1- Money. A winning show dog makes alot of money. If they take a stand and stop breeding dogs to what judges want to see, then they lose money. Ofcourse, someone else who wants money WILL breed what judges want to see.

2- People who actually believe that this is the way GSD's should be. Some people are obsessive about breed standards.

3- People trying to preserve working abilities in showlines. Unfortunately, most of these breeders do not have access to the types of dogs that SHOULD be bred to preserve working abilities in the showlines, so ultimately it comes down to money again. The people with the good showlines want alot of money! Then on top of this: What the average showline breeder considers "good working qualities", is often "a borderline OK dog" to people with more experience. The showline breeders I have come accross who actually enjoy the work, they seek to produce some type of "ultimate all around dog". The dog does great in families, is low enough in drive to be easy around the house, and high enough in drive to hang on to a sleeve.

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I am very happy to know a handful of trainers/breeders in the US who hold their breeding programs to higher standards, and are trying to make a difference. Not surprisingly, these people tend to own and/or train both working and show lines.

Yes, there are some, although few and far between compared to the shere number of breeders breeding showlines. It is doubtful that they will be CONSISTANTLY up to par with some of the best working lines. At least not for another 20+ years of consistent selective breeding. But at least they are heading in the right direction, and they are producing dogs capable of actual work.

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I think there is plenty to criticize in the working lines too.

Absolutely. People keep asking me to locate a puppy for them, and I have a hard as hell time finding GSD breeders that I like. Finding a Malinois I really like is just as hard, and thats the breed people are looking to because its "easier". In reality, with a Malinois, it is easier to find a dog that will work, but that does not mean the dog is GOOD. It means the dog is suitable for sport. I have seen good looking (work-wise) Mal's, who tuck their tail and hide behind the handler when the decoy throws the sleeve on the ground. Finding a good dog is hard, period. Even more so in a limited gene pool like the showlines.

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Dave Blank's biggest piece of advice to folks around here who are thinking of buying a dog or puppy, or wanting to evaluate blood lines, etc. for breeding (and this advice extends beyond the GSD breed). WATCH THE PARENTS WORK. He doesn't trust titles and blood lines on paper very much.

While this is good advice, the only concern I have here is that genetics are not limited to the parents. I know of several top level dogs who produce really poorly. There is a saying here: "Breed enough litters and odds are you will have a good one at some point". Beware that the parents weren't a "fluke". Repeat breedings is usually good indicator, but still not fool proof.

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So much of the pressure in the show lines is to have titles (and I mean SchH3 titles) by the time the dogs (especially males) are two years old.

This drives me crazy. I agree, people try too hard to move a dog along quickly. I have known trainers who get annoyed when they work with clients who's dogs aren't doing long downs at 10 months old, and start compulsion at 12-16 weeks. I don't get the rush. GSD's are very slow maturing dogs in general and don't begin to show their true colors till the are 1 year old, and aren't "ready" till 3.

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I'm going to delve further into hot water by saying that if the showline are breeding for looks they are failing miserably.

Thankyou for sharing your opinion, albeit a little harsh. There is nothing "wrong" with showlines (ok there is, but thats not what I mean). I own one, I like them, and I understand their value in the world. What I am talking about is the general attitudes in the showline world. There are good showlines out there, and there are showlines with better structure, and worse structure.

I can name 10 WORKING GSD's off the top of my head that had fused spines, weak pasterns, bad hips, extra vertibrae's in their spine, etc. While the showlines have a roached back and have more difficulty in jumping than a working line does, when you have a working line dog with structural problems, the problems are on average much worse than those you find in the show lines -- on top of which, people will continue breeding the bloodline because the dog works well. It is considered a "non-crippling" flaw, so the line will continue.

There are problems on both sides of the fence. As far as dogs go, showlines are great dogs with alot of personality.

Never mind. (a response to Janet that was a waste of air)

Hi Beth, I didn't see your reply, but I'm sure it was valid. I apologize for my remarks if they offended you. I love this breed, but I admit I'm frustrated with it. I had a showline(AmXGer) and I loved him. As I've said in other posts he was IMHO the correct temperment and structure actually, quite squarely built and no sloping rear. He looked like the older 1964 showline dogs. I don't want to start a nasty debate, but I would like to say this. The standard has not changed over the years, so why such a change in the GSD? Is there any other breed that has such a variation in conformation? Here is a link showing VA dogs of 35 yrs ago - to todays West German Showlines. Quite a change, and why? There is even significant change from the 80's to the end of the 90's.

http://www.justshepherds.com/wgshow.htm
This exerpt is from another website:

http://workingdogs.com/portal/html/article.php?sid=57

The standard for the German Shepherd Dog, while annoyingly vague in many respects, has not changed appreciably over the years. Unfortunately, the same cannot be said of the breed. From the 1940’s, when most dogs in most countries looked pretty much the same, we now have West German show, West German working, East German, Czechoslovakian, English Alsation, American show and probably others yet in the making. Partly this is due to a natural, genetic diversification of families, and is probably a good thing. Related dogs tend to look alike. Partly it’s due to legitimate differences in breeders’ preferences. Working line breeders, for instance, will tend to put less emphasis on movement than on drive. But in many cases it’s just ignorance of what correct conformation is all about. The short legs and long bodies of the Alsation were simply not efficient. Neither are the extreme rear angulation and sloping toplines of American show dogs, nor the roached backlines of West German show dogs. These faults have never been acceptable under the standard, but somehow they became fashionable in their respective countries and have been promoted by “big” breeders and judges alike.



I said in my previous post, that there were exceptions, and there are. I like alot of the older style showlines, before the roached backs and more angulated rears set in. I guess I just don't agree with most judges on what looks 'good'.
I also fostered a showline from Holland (a 2000 dollar value) and took him to schutzhund and showed him. He was high drive (used to chase his tail constantly) and not what I'd want to pay two thousand for, infact, I preferred my $800 dollar dog.
These dogs are from(some say squeaked through) titled parents, cost large sums of money, and you still are taking such a crap shoot on questionable temperment, conformation and working ability. The workingline are significantly less money, and there are IMHO many beautiful(and yes, not so) dogs there too.
Some may like the variation in shopping within one breed, I think it's sad.
This is my opinion, and I'm sure many disagree with it, so be it.

Hi all,

I just want to say,I have a one yr old GSD. He is from show/working line breeding. He was imported from Germany.
He has " pink papers ". He has been very easy to work with
and beautiful to look at. He never reacted to people,dogs,
vacuum cleaners,or even guns fired during hunting season.
Aside from obedience classes,I have never tested his abilities
for schutzhund. I have always felt this was the easiest dog
I've ever owned. I'm not sure if he could endure the pressures
of this type of training either physically or mentally. Regardless, having a high performance animal of any kind that must endure physical and mental stress and come out on top is rare. I have a dog that is sound of mind and body and a joy to be with. So stop making me feel like I must apoligize for owning (in your opinion) an inferior dog.