Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40300 - 10/12/2001 01:40 PM |
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No Richard. Unless I’m way off I think what I said was correct. You are frustrating the defense drive while I am the prey drive. Doesn’t really matter. She’s tried my way so now it’s time for something new.
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40301 - 10/20/2001 02:36 AM |
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I don't have the experience of some of you guys but I'm going through drive building with an older dog. I want to learn on him so when get a another one I don't make stupid mistakes. I found that you can't use frustration in the beginning on a dog with little prey drive. For one he is not confident that that he can get the prey item. In the beginning I believe in letting him get the prey item to build his confidence. Once you see he has confidence and believes he can catch or steel the item then make it more difficult. A dog with no prey drive will just walk away from you and make you look like a jack ass if you frustrate him early. The purpose of prey developemnt is also to build confidence in your dog.
DWJ |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40302 - 10/20/2001 10:52 PM |
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What's an expert to you is just a begginer to someone else. I don't know if I agree with your frustration comment though. I have to admit I am not a helper that has worked hundreds of dogs. But i'm pretty sure on that one. Let's hear from others. Pete???
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40303 - 10/22/2001 10:37 AM |
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I guess I need to reply to a couple of things here.
As to DWJ's last post... I'm not quite clear on what he's getting at. Personally I would not even want to train a dog with little or no prey drive, especially not for any kind of bite work. You've got nothing to work with then except civil aggression and to me this is like playing with a loaded gun. No thanks.
If we're not talking about bite work then I guess it's obedience exercises and if the dog is deficient in prey, you go to food and hope that works. If it doesn't then I'm damned if I can come up with anything except compulsion. I don't buy into any kind of dog mysticism, which is why some of our recently departed trainers used to piss me off.
But one line catches my eye--if "catching or stealing" the prey item is important to the dog, then the dog must have at least a moderate amount of prey drive.
Also, Vince--I have not had a great deal of helper experience. I was just starting to get comfortable catching dogs when I ruined my back and had to have surgery. Doc sez no more helper work. So I'm just going to keep it to line bites & escapes from now on <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
I like Richard's idea for Renee. Will have to see how it works out.
Pete
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40304 - 10/22/2001 03:51 PM |
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Good post Pete but you missed my point. You do not need to build confidence in prey work. A dog working in prey is a picture of confidence. You must build confidence in defensive work. One of two things is happening. One is he has no prey drive and all the work in the world will not change that or two he is not working in prey which means poor helper/handler work. Makes sense Pete/Richard??
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40305 - 10/22/2001 07:35 PM |
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You do not need to build confidence in prey work.
I think that might depend on whether you are chasing after a moose or a bunny rabbit to bite.
How does your puppy/dog view the "prey" he is offered? If he views it as a bunny rabbit, then he probably doesn't need confidence-building to chase & bite in prey; but, if he views it as a moose, then chances are he probably might need some confidence-building to chase & bite in prey.
Nerves are an important factor in whether & how a dog bites in any drive. IMO the only dog that has no prey drive is a dead dog. So, if a dog doesn't bite in prey, it either is not attracted to the particular prey being offered or it has a nerve issue. If the dog is not attracted to the particular "prey" item, then find one that does turn him on. If the dog has a nerve issue, then confidence building in prey is necessary before using the frustration method.
All the methods & suggestions made above are good -- it just depends on the dog as to which one is best for a particular situation. JMO.
Ellen Nickelsberg |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40306 - 10/22/2001 09:07 PM |
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Vince & Pete,
I think what DWJ is talking about is early in training. There are 2 things that go on particularly with an older dog. One the dog has to be taught the game and 2 to identify the rag/sleeve as a prey item. Often with an older dog they have been taught not to go in to prey drive and take something from a person. The dog needs to be taught how to play the game. Once the dog learns the game then frustration can be used to increase the intensity of the effort in prey drive for the new prey item.
This is one area with an older dog where defense can have to rear it's head to start training. If you approach the dog and put them in defense and convert to prey as soon as the dog comes out, and really praise the dog for comming out, switch to prey, once the dog understands the game you can start in prey and frustrate them to get them to react more intensely when the prey item is presented. Then once the dog has learned the mechanics in prey go back to defense training to teach confidence in a more threatening situation.
If you can't be a Good Example,then You'll just have to Serve as a Horrible Warning. Catherine Aird. |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40307 - 10/23/2001 12:43 PM |
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Ellen:
I’m not sure I agree with you on this one. When a dog goes into prey drive he does not see the prey item as prey to hunt/eat. It is an unconscious reaction to chase a moving item. He has no control over this. If you throw a piece of paper in my face I will bat it away without even thinking. This reaction or drive we call prey only occurs if the dog is confident. It does not happen if the dog is stressed unless we are talking about drive interaction but I am talking about its purest form. A great example is in one of Ed’s tape where a PO handler is reconditioning a SchH dog into a PSD. A helper is behind a fence and yelling at the dog. The dog barks back in defense until he throws a rock which bounces of the fence the dog for a split second barks in prey in response to the moving object. The dog’s attention went away from the stressful agitator on the stress less rock. If he were unsure of the object bouncing around he would have stayed in defense. Make sense? Or are you rolling your eyes at me.
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40308 - 10/23/2001 07:23 PM |
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Vince,
You always make sense <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> and I wouldn't think of :rolleyes: at you.
Anyway ..... I guess if you define prey drive as "an unconscious reaction to chase a moving item" and that "he(the dog) has no control over this(unconscous reaction)", then I would agree with you -- IOW if chasing = prey drive.
My problem is that I see prey drive as more complicated than that -- I see it as interactive as well as something that the dog can have a certain amount of control over.
You also said "when a dog goes into prey drive he does not see the prey item as prey to hunt/eat" and I can agree with that. However, IMO the ultimate satisfaction of the prey drive is to capture, control or stop the prey -- unless taught otherwise the dog will achieve that drive satisfaction by biting.
IMO it is in the act of biting that the dog may show resistance for any number of reasons even in prey drive. And, this was the point that I was trying to make in my original post. This is also why (as Richard was saying) that a skilled trainer/helper can move a dog back & forth between prey & defense. But I know you know that and so I think any disagreement we may have is more semantic than anything else -- at least I hope.
Are you pulling a :rolleyes: yourself now? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
Ellen Nickelsberg |
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Re: training progress
[Re: Vince P. ]
#40309 - 10/24/2001 02:08 AM |
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Originally posted by Vince P.:
You do not need to build confidence in prey work.
Ooops, missed a few posts. I see this extract was clarified. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />
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