Re: herding discussions
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#304756 - 11/28/2010 10:17 PM |
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I am not experienced in herding but am experienced enough to say this individual would never have laid a hand on my dog. It is your job to protect your dog - why did you not do so?
Yes, but what did the OP mean by this -
simply put he overlays a bit of brutality on dogs to gain control so they are in a constant state of near avoidance.
I know handlers use body pressure in training and the dogs learn to respond to that body pressure - but it's not avoidance. I know that a handler may have a crook and hit the ground in front of a keen young dog to gain some attention or may throw a hat at a dog to get it's attention. I wouldn't exactly call those brutal.
Could it have been something like this? Or maybe it was entirely different and was cruel to the dog. But we won't know unless the OP explains the method that was used.
Herding is not all about the dog - it's about the stock too and a good handler is going to train the dog in such a way to put the least amount of stress on the stock.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#304757 - 11/28/2010 10:33 PM |
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I am not experienced in herding but am experienced enough to say this individual would never have laid a hand on my dog. It is your job to protect your dog - why did you not do so?
Yes, but what did the OP mean by this -
simply put he overlays a bit of brutality on dogs to gain control so they are in a constant state of near avoidance.
I know handlers use body pressure in training and the dogs learn to respond to that body pressure - but it's not avoidance. I know that a handler may have a crook and hit the ground in front of a keen young dog to gain some attention or may throw a hat at a dog to get it's attention. I wouldn't exactly call those brutal.
Could it have been something like this? Or maybe it was entirely different and was cruel to the dog. But we won't know unless the OP explains the method that was used.
Herding is not all about the dog - it's about the stock too and a good handler is going to train the dog in such a way to put the least amount of stress on the stock.
Mara and Michael - your questions are far better than was my assumption.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#304767 - 11/28/2010 11:40 PM |
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I'm with the others wondering what exactly the brutality entailed. Conan has gotten a few crooks thrown on the ground in front of him when he's not backing off like he should. He bounces back into the game just fine.
I'm still learning a lot about herding. Mara Jessup, who's joined in, and Bob Scott would be the best people to talk to here. Terra Presotto, if she's around, would be a great help too.
By hard circler do you mean a dog that you can't get on balance? If that's the case I think you just need to practice flanking the dog in a small pen.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Barbara Schuler ]
#304768 - 11/28/2010 11:54 PM |
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hi all hope this thread gets more people to consider herding as a fun thing to do considering most here own GSD's or Mals it is just going back to the roots of the breed purpose. sorry if i don't respond to all ?'s right away.
firstly; why didn't i protect my dog, hey i went in good faith with a paid expert to learn, i didn't know what he was going to do and i physically stopped him soon as i did - can you do more than that, what he did to my dog was what he does to his own dogs everyday HE doesn't think he needs a good smacking, that is how he trains and makes a living. kind of embarrassing when a participant shuts you down in front of the whole group in the opening minutes of your seminar - i can't change anyone but i can choose to not give them MY money and i can make sure they don't get a start around these parts ever again. Barabara / Mara you were not there, what do you think you would have done, hindsight is a great thing it makes us all experts. he will not get the chance again, and out of respect for the group i didn't make a bigger deal out of it, some people even thought his methods were good - each to their own, poor dogs is all i can say. i would like to read more stories about people being killed by their own dogs in fact i can only wish it upon them.
second; there is a difference between body pressure using handler postioning relative to a herd and being a knucklehead. he demo'ed a training technique on a dog that hadn't even been given a command just to show people what to do - WTF.
third; to Micheal, you can teach a dog to herd no more than you can teach them to track, the dogs in this case are already born with both high drive & instinct hence they overcome the trainer - which is how he gets his results, lesser dogs would be destroyed in one session. yes there are results like cash prizes from trials and titles etc to back himself with but i'm not that desperate for either. - not sure how to explain that any better. not sure what ?'s i missed or if this makes it clearer.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#304770 - 11/29/2010 12:57 AM |
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What breed of dog do you have? What trainer did you go to? (PM me if you don't want to share names publicly) What do you mean by "hard circlers"?
Remember that Peter lives in Australia so the odds are that we've never heard of that trainer..........
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#304771 - 11/29/2010 05:51 AM |
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W_h_a_t.....i_s......t_h_i_s .....t_e_r_r_i_b_l_e,.....b_r_u_t_a_l,......
a_b_u_s_s_i_v_e .......t_r_a_i_n_i_n_g .......t_e_c_h_n_i_q_u_e?
Please answer this question Peter.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Peter Cavallaro ]
#304773 - 11/29/2010 06:56 AM |
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Peter, so far nothing that you've said points to cruelty to the dog. You need to give us specifics of what he did.
he demo'ed a training technique on a dog that hadn't even been given a command just to show people what to do
So what did he do????? I'll work a young dog in the round pen and give him few to no commands because I'm working with instinct and I haven't named the commands yet. He does it right, responds to my pressure, covers the sheep, but gives them space and I'll let him work. He dives and bites or singles out one I'll correct him even though I haven't given him a command because he is not supposed to do that.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Mara Jessup ]
#304776 - 11/29/2010 08:07 AM |
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I've found with my ACD cross that occasional well timed hard corrections have made lasting positive impact.
Here's an example: My pup wants to be a header, or rather, he seems to know that the cow 's mind is "in" her head- I can understand this, if you wanted to get someone to do something, you don't go and scream at their shoes. So, moving the cattle, he starts with a bark or "run around" the face, then moves behind. Well, that's fine in the open, but with a cow in a pen, it makes the cow want to run over top of you, which is dangerous and scary. After throwing things at him a few times
in this situation he has learned that in close quarters he can help from behind ONLY.
BCs herd way different than your dog--and mine.
Find someone who trains dogs like yours, you'll see a different style.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Peter Cavallaro ]
#304791 - 11/29/2010 10:45 AM |
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third; to Micheal, you can teach a dog to herd no more than you can teach them to track, the dogs in this case are already born with both high drive & instinct hence they overcome the trainer - which is how he gets his results, This is my exact game plan for my next dog.
Getting a dog that has natural instincts for the task at hand still sounds like a great idea to me. No brainer.
I think any good trainer is going to start with the right dog for the job. No matter how bad I'd like it to work, I'm afraid I'll just have to skip over that Lhasa Apso as my next tracking prospect.
he is totally old school and relies a lot on both the trainabiity, natural instincts of the BC.
simply put he overlays a bit of brutality on dogs to gain control so they are in a constant state of near avoidance. I still don't get how simply put, trainability and natural instincts = brutality.
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Re: herding discussions
[Re: Michael_Wise ]
#304796 - 11/29/2010 11:19 AM |
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Peter, just answer these questions for us.
Did the trainer hit the dogs? Did he kick them? Did he hit crooks or paddles on the ground near them or throw them at the dog? If they were on long lines, did he correct them?
And what were the dogs doing or not doing when he did this?
Some of us are still confused because we don't know what was going on. Was he flanking the dogs? Showing a fetch? Putting the stock back in pens?
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