I aquired a 2 year old Mali from a breeder in Lake County, Florida. I was way over my head, as my background is with Labrador's and narcotics work. I was looking for a smaller mal that I could place on top, or in awkward areas for searching narcotics. I found a French Ring Mali. Anyways, when I went to go see the dog, the dog was really ball driven, and was curious of me. There where other dogs, but the breeder stated that they where the Dam, and Sire. Both of these dogs where (allegedly) working dogs. I wanted to sleep on it, but the seller told me he had another offer, and the buyer was on the way. So out of stupidity, I forked over $1000.00, and was given a bill of sale. He told me he had the pedigree, and genetic line at his office, and would mail it to me once the office opened the next business day. Well I brought the dog home, secluded him, and began the GW. About a week later, I tried following up with the seller, and nothing. He forwarded all calls to voicemail, cashed the check but never sent any pedigree. I got nervious so I took the dog to get scanned (to make sure he wasnt stolen). I began the bonding process, and me and my wife walked him nightly. We played with the tennis ball, throwing it into bushes, hiding it, and began doing the foundation for drug work evaluation. Sarge as he was named, always circles items (coffee table, bushes, etc). I never knew the cause of this. Over time he became avoidant of my wife (unknown as to why, maybe because she became pregnant / hormone change?). One night we where walking him, I stopped to tie my shoes, and she continued on, once the dog realized I wasnt next to him, and had fallen back about 30 feet, he started pulling toward me. She tried to have him sit, after refusal, she repeated, and gave a mild / soft correction. He then communicated up the leash to her hand. I took control of the dog at that point, and have never had issues with him bitting at me.

I met an K9 instructor out of upstate New York, that had Mals, and trained working dogs in Upstate NY. He offered to evaluate sarge. During the evaluation, he brought out a tug, a flirt pole, and a ball. Sarge went ape for the flirt pole, and from what I seen, and was told had good full grip on the tug when the instructor used it. The instructor told me that the dog had been used, or atleast trained for bite work. I found it hard to believe, and he told me to bring him out again when he (the instructor) was doing PP work. SO I did, and to my surprise, Sarge lit up like a christmas tree at the bite suit, and sleeve. However, he shut completely down when he heard the whip. Now he was in a kennel about 20-30 yards away. Sarge went right into avoidance, and released his anal gland. We stopped exposing him to the whip sound, and worked on tug, and confidence for 4 or 5 months. We decided to expose him to the sound again once we felt confident he would work through it. I played tug off to the side (30 -50 yards away) while the Instructor did his Decoy work. Sarge worked through it, but you can tell he is working in avoidance, as he switches from side to side while on the tug instead of being centered.

Overall, he is very iffy about people, is not a social butterfly, and is hesitant around people. Which isnt condusive to what I need for a narcotics dog. The instructor believes that the dogs nerves where shot by over exposure. Possibly table trained. I am here looking for guidence, if possible. Atleast ideas on how to help sarge overcome the avoidance issues. I have been working with him everyday, and he has overcome alot.. The whip, and clappin indoors send him into avoidance instantly.

I don't have a lot of experience with Mals or working line dogs except my two and the ones I've seen at the club but imho there are two reasons for the noise fear, one you already mentioned, the crap training, and the other is the dog was born with weak and thin nerves. If it's just crap training you might be able to manage that by making an impulse noise just prior to feeding and maybe increasing db gradually over a period of time. If it's bad genetics as far as I know there isn't much you can do. How does the dog react to thunderstorms?

The dog is absolutly fine in thunderstorms, before, during and after. If he had his way, he would be out in them. He thinks its fun to chase rain. Its hard to tell if its genetics, or training. But since he isnt fearful globaly, I, and the trainer think its the result of an idiot hard handed trainer. Out of coincidence a friend of mine boarded her Choclate lab at this place (i didnt know) after I got sarge, and when she picked her up 30 days later she was grossly under wieght, coat and nails went to crap. She began to show aggression / avoidance from people with sticks, and at the time had unexplained burn marks on her. We found out that the marks where from a cattle prod, which explains the stick avoidance. Her dog, and my dog both share a common avoidance issue, and that is the water hose. Due to it being used to shut up the dogs constantly while being left in a dog run.

Furthermore, if it is his nerves, I dont think they are that weak, but definatly not as high as his drive is. As he does work through it. And from conditioning he is beggining to stay centered on a tug instead of pulling left or right going into avoidance. There is no vocalization while on a tug, so no hectic behavior.

Also I forgot to mention that we are trying to seperate sound from sight too. we already tried clapping out doors, but it obviously does not have the same effect as indoors in a house with tile floors. So we are trying to figure out, if its sight + sound related, or just sound or sight related. The whip itself he responds to with either sight or sound. Sight he goes into avoidance, but the sound he kinda hesitates.. IE he wont retreat but he points his head out slightly lowered, with his tail out in a sit, or down. Basically what spawned the clapping ordeal, is my daughters got all A's on thier progress reports, and high fived each other, Sarge went balistic, jumping from the floor, to couch, and releasing his anal gland. It was the first episode in a long time. Since then I have spoke with my children, which do follow certain rules in the house when there are dogs present, and this one kinda went over my head, as I didnt think to consider clapping as a no no.

Josh, you mentioned that your Mal hadn't had a "fear" reaction in awhile, but then reacted strongly when your kids "high fived" each other.

It's not uncommon for fear based behaviors to show consistent progress then have a "spontaneous recovery" a time or two down the road. That could well mean that you are making progress in your rehab efforts. Sometimes you'll see what are called "extinction bursts" in behaviors that you thought were dead and gone. Other times, it's just that you haven't sampled all the causes of the fear reaction yet. The fear-based stuff seems to be particularly resistant (it's a "conditioned response"), and it just takes time and repetition of new (less threatening) experiences paired with less reactive responses to eventually take the place of the extreme reactions. Based on some of the other things you've said, I'd put my money on crappy training that caused these reactions. Dangit, and sometimes once you get a misbehavior started, it can be a PIA to get rid of. Fear = survival in the animal world, unfortunately. Stay patient, and keep doing what you are doing and you'll likely continue to see progress (with a decreasing frequency of the major fear reaction as time goes on...). It might end up being the type of thing where you'll never extinguish the reactions totally, but you can decrease them, make them briefer, and get a firm understanding about what brings them on. I don't know how tolerant you can be of the behaviors in your intended work situation. I guess that will be a decision you'll have to make on your own. Certainly, your relationship with the dog, and passage of time and experiences, will play a hand.

Don't feel too bad over the deal with the breeder. I've had my "bamboozled" experience, too. Same promises of "papers to be delivered later." We were too starry-eyed with the new pup to think it all the way through. Fortunately, papers don't make the animal.

It does sound like you have alot of experience with dogs and are very observant of small changes in your dog's behavior and what stimuli might be causing the changes. You don't need me to warn you about keeping your kids safe in this process. Sounds to me like that dog got lucky to end up in your corral. In the end, this one may end up being one of your best workers, if you've got the time and patience to work through this crappy history, and if he proves to have talent at what you'll ask him to do. Maybe that's part of it as well. Once he's learned a job and is working at it... You will know him well, I'd bet on that.

Good luck and keep us posted on your progress!!

Oh, and congratulate your kids for the "A's"!!!

The commonalities in your dog's reactions seem to be hands raised overhead paired with a noise (whip, high fives). Anyone care to wager how this got started?

(I'd be cautious at a baseball game, too...Lacrosse match? Tennis...yada yada)

The hope is that whatever dipsh*t trained him didn't botch the socialization process too...and/or that your expertise and patience can overcome the history.
Good luck.

Joshua - you might also send off a pm, or try to engage Brandon Hardman, Will Rambeau, or Kevin Sheldahl - all members of this board, and all of whom have extensive experience with working K9s (sorry if my list excluded some of you other experts - my own ignorance prevents me from knowing alot of your backgrounds).

I'm sure that's why you posted here, but the experts could help you cut through an awful lot of trial and error.

Thanks for the responses. I know for a fact his socialization, and imprinting was crap.. The breeder / previous owner, lived in the country, and had not taken him anywhere. Humans to him are a new creature, atleast more than the previous owner. I am trying to socialize the crap out of him. And its paying off slowly but surely. While no one pets my dog, I do stage family members, and friends going in, and out of stores And everytime it is a positive expirence. If i see stress build up, I show a tug, and he is on it like lightning, and will work through the stress. Thankfully, he is not dog aggressive!

So, the few humans he knew very well were idiots. It sounds like you've already made an awful lot of progress with him. I'd have to predict the progress will continue, but as you know, it's not always linear. Every now and then it seems to go backwards for a bit...then move on...

Good luck

OK I have found out more information and confirmed it about the seller of the dog, and his "training" that he does. Now cross referencing what I see from the dog in behavior, and putting it together with what I know the training the dog underwent, I can see the puzzle completely put together.

1.) The place I purchased the dog from (unknown to me) does mostly table training. It is the prefered method of training by this individual. In addition to table traing, the "trainer" uses a cattle prod to "engage the dogs fight drive", or pulls the males testicles.
2.) Second prefered and used method is flanking the dog. I assume that this is used in tandom, and seperate from table training.
3.) Behavorial modification is done with a high powered water hose sprayed at the dog runs to stop barking, pacing, or hectic behavior.


So here is a good question for you, that are surpassed my knowledge base, or those of you that may have a different idea. How do I reverse some of the damage done to this dog mentaly? What are good games, and mental stimulation for this dog to overcome his avoidance, or hesitation. While I realize that he may never be able to handle the pressure of bitework, or sport work. I have been running him in agility, but not anything competetive. He does excellent work with scent work (narcotics) but is a bit hesitant if I have an assistant assist me in the reward. He is starting to walk towards people and begin to sniff them, and seems for the most part is starting to rehab. I have no illusions that this dog will be 100% but by running him in agility, giving him a job (scent work), structuring his activity by being alpha, and socialization he is becoming more hesitant, rather than avoidant. Any extra ideas will be greatly appreciated.

BTW, I recently have be given the oppertunity to bathe his hindequarters and tail without retaliation from the dog, or stressing him out. So i see progress in every little thing.