Drives in the PSD
#152160 - 08/17/2007 01:51 PM |
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I have been researching a lot about defense and fight drives. I have also read that defense is not a desirable quality for a police service dog. Is this true? Should this be the case, how is fight drive development trained into a PSD that would not be worked in defense? As always, if this is a sensitive topic please PM me.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Brad . Martin ]
#152165 - 08/17/2007 02:18 PM |
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Hey Brad,
my understanding from watching Ed's DVDs is that defense is a stressful drive for a dog to be in. "It's an uncomfortable place for the dog to be in" is Ed's exact quote, I think.
Fight drive on the other hand is a very comfortable place for a dog to be but can only be achieved by a very strong dog who has a lot of confidence and experience behind him.
I'm guessing that it's ideal if your dog is working in fight (absolutely sure of himself and KNOWING that he can defeat the man) and not in defense (where he's being stressed and is uncomfortable).
Ed's definitions of the different drives are pretty clear as far as the dog's level of comfort
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#152166 - 08/17/2007 02:33 PM |
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Hi Yuko,
I'm not asking for a definition of drives here. I am asking if defense is used to train PSDs and if not, what, if any, other methods are utilized to produce fight drive in PSDs / can fight drive even be produced without the use of defense. Reading my post it may sound a bit mean or rude but that's not my intent, and I appreciate your effort, I really do, but unfortunately if you have never trained a fight drive dog or a PSD then I don't think that you are able to answer my question. But thanks all the same.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Brad . Martin ]
#152169 - 08/17/2007 02:46 PM |
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Um, don't all dogs doing real protection work have to go through defensive training??
I haven't trained that myself of course, but I remember Ed saying that defense eventually has to be introduced (whether it be a police dog, or a protection dog, or even a high-end schutzhund dog).
I certainly don't recall him recommending that anyone send an exclusively prey-trained dog out to do real protection work!
Anyway I'll step out of the discussion since I obviously can't discuss training methods in this area
I only piped in because what you were suggesting seemed to me to be contradicting Ed's definition of fight drive.
Sorry for any confusion.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Yuko Blum ]
#152173 - 08/17/2007 03:34 PM |
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Well yes, that was my understanding also, which is what inspired this question. The inspiration came from some comments in this thread. It was mentioned that fight drive can be seen in puppies?? And it was mentioned that defense is not an admirable characteristic for a dog meant for police duties. So, that prompted me to wonder how this individual trained fight drive in his PSD when defense was never worked. Now this gentleman has not posted here for a number of years, since before I was a member, perhaps his comments from that period are just outdated, but when I read that I thought to myself... WTF???
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Brad . Martin ]
#152177 - 08/17/2007 03:51 PM |
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More than likely the poster thinks he/she sees fight drive tendencies in their pup, definitely not fight drive. Brad, Yuko is right on with her comments here, but you continue to ask the wrong question. A dog must go into defense drive at some point if you want it to attain what you are calling fight drive. The way your asking your question is like asking a boxer if he can learn how to fight without fighting. It doesn't make sense.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Michael Reese ]
#152184 - 08/17/2007 05:07 PM |
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I know, Michael, that's why I'm asking. The poster in the thread I linked to seemed to get quite a high degree of reverence from other board members involved in that discussion, so his comments got me thinking if there was something that I was missing. I realize that the comments Yuko made are correct but they did not pertain to the question that I asked. No offense, but I don't see how I am asking the wrong question.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Michael Reese ]
#152195 - 08/17/2007 06:05 PM |
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Brad
Reese is correct. Pups don't ever have fight drive - not ever. Fight drive is defined in detail on my web site in my list of training articles. You need to go read it.
This is not a simple topic to understand. It certainly can never be completely understood by reading about it on the internet or in a book.
Just as it take experience for a dog to develop "FD" it takes experience to recognize it when you wee it. As a rule its seen more with police K9 officers. To get it in a personal protection dog requires a skilled helper - and I mean a really skilled helper - more than a club sport helper.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Brad . Martin ]
#152232 - 08/17/2007 09:08 PM |
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Brad, may I point out that the thread that you linked to was *six* years old?
Many of us have learned more about canine behavior and drives during that time period - any good trainer is always learning and modifying their dog training methods.
So looking at a discussion that old doesn't always relate to how we understand and train dogs in the present.
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Re: Drives in the PSD
[Re: Will Rambeau ]
#152246 - 08/17/2007 10:46 PM |
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Yes Will I know that the thread is very old, I inquired about that in my question asking if the information provided was outdated. All I'm wondering is if a dog has a high threshold for defense or if the capable helper should find that such a dog may exist that exhibits fight drive capabilities having never been put into defense drive, becasue the dog is just so damn tough, ever really existed.
I'm not suggesting that this is or is not true just merely inquiring if it is possible and if perhaps it were do any of the PD handlers have a first hand account of such a case?
I mean if a balance of prey and defense, plus, of course, genetics and proper training, are all used together to produce a fight drive dog can there feasibly be an event where one of these contributing factors are not required in the equasion, particularily if the defense work is trained as a means to an end, that end being to produce fight drive, and the fight drive itself being purely a matter of correct breeding? In all honesty I figured it to be "a yes or no" question but this is turning into something a bit too extreme.
And I'd just like to state that I am not contradicting anything, I am only seeking clarification from credible sources, that's why I posted the question on Leerburg.
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