I'm going to start "yet another nipping puppy" thread. I've read many of the threads here on the forum, Ed's Q&A, watched the "8-weeks to 8-months" video. I know puppies bit/nip. I know about establishing pack rank with biting, etc.

My Australian Shepherd is about 4 months. I know she'll eventually grow out of this nipping stage. She's always on a leash and it's almost always in my hand. Sometimes I stand on the leash and limit her movements. She's not physically tied to me though maybe she should be. I'm working the dog quite a bit during the day. We take 2 - 3 walks a day for 30 - 45 minutes; sometimes an hour. We do dedicated marker training sessions at least once a day; but I also make her down in the kitchen while I fix meals, etc. When she's focused on me she does very well. I can almost keep her from being distracted by our other dog or by our toddler. She's getting better all the time.

Here's my problem. I have four kids: two boys age 11 and 8, two girls age 7 and 2. All the kids want to play with the dog. I know this is a volatile situation and I supervise closely. They boys have tried playing fetch, but Suzzie isn't that interested. What ends up happening is the boys (being boys) just start yelling and running around and Suzzie chases them. Not ideal behavior, I know. She isn't jumping on them (for the most part) and isn't biting them (for the most part). It's just boys and dog running together. That seems good, but maybe bad.

The real problem is my two girls. Both are smaller, less physical, and frankly intimidated by Suzzie. Suzzie tries to jump on them to greet and get in their face. She's not really biting them, just greeting. When she does I give the "off" command and pull her down with the leash. We have these tense moments when I'm pulling her off the girls, she's pulling on the leash towards the girls, and the girls are freaking a little. I've instructed the girls to tell her "no", stand up (instead of taking the fetal position on the ground) and turn around. But Suzzie jumps on the back or shoulders (she's nearly as big as either girl) and ends up scratching with her claws.

I know that with constant vigilance and establishing the rules Suzzie will eventually grow out of this. What I'm most concerned about is the girls between now and then. They are intimidated by Suzzie. For now they still want to pet her and would like to play with her. I'm not sure how many more jumping/scratching episodes can happen where that will remain true. I need very practical advice on how to handle my dog around the girls and what to teach my girls to do with the dog.

Here's what I suspect I need to be doing. Most of the time, the incidents happen in kind of a "drive by" fashion. Suzzie and I will be going outside and the girls get in our path and Suzzie jumps. Or maybe I'll have Suzzie with me outside and the girls will come out and Suzzie will jump before I can control the situation. What I think I need to do is control these encounters more. Make sure Suzzie is under control and (ideally) calm before the girls get near her. It's just that life happens so fast I can't always control it. I guess I need advice on how to get better control and how to handle it when I lose control and Suzzie jumps on one of the girls.

What commands does Suzzie know? Can you have her sit and then have the girls pet her? If she breaks the sit, that's it, no pets, take her away?

That, or if you think the situations is going to be one of those situations where you can't have control at all times (and I can imagine, with 4 kids), that Suzzie not be there.

 Quote: Doug Alcorn

She's not physically tied to me though maybe she should be.

Yes.

I have an Aussie (and two small children) also. She's two now (and still learning ) but when she was younger, I would put her on a leash when we were outside playing in the yard. She was not allowed to react to the kids running. No chasing/ nipping etc.

I have no idea if it was time or my training, but she is pretty good (and still learning ) about not chasing/ herding the kids.

fwiw- I took her to an OB class where the instructor had Aussies. She told us that in her house, kids are not allowed to run around because the dogs will want to do what comes naturally to them.

 Quote: Mike Hawker

when she was younger, I would put her on a leash when we were outside playing in the yard. She was not allowed to react to the kids running. No chasing/ nipping etc.

Can you give more details about this? What would you do? Just hold the leash tight and not let her chase/jump/etc? When we're out on walks and meet people along the way she pretty much starts acting crazy on the end of the leash. I can eventually (and more and more) get control of her by just keeping a tight leash. Wondering other options for helping her to ignore other people/kids/dogs while we're out.

Also, how did you let your kids interact with the dog when she was younger? How did you manage those situations?

 Quote:

fwiw- I took her to an OB class where the instructor had Aussies.

That would be nice to hook up with some local Aussie owners for obedience class and such. I have pretty much zero experience with shepherds, collies, and esp. not aussies.

 Quote:

She told us that in her house, kids are not allowed to run around because the dogs will want to do what comes naturally to them.

Not sure this sounds like a fun house for a kid to be a kid in. There's definite tension here. Shepherds being shepherds will chase and nip. Kids being kids will run and yell. Given time, you might be able to train (or reduce) both behaviors

 Quote: Doug Alcorn

 Quote: Mike Hawker

when she was younger, I would put her on a leash when we were outside playing in the yard. She was not allowed to react to the kids running. No chasing/ nipping etc.

Can you give more details about this? What would you do? Just hold the leash tight and not let her chase/jump/etc? When we're out on walks and meet people along the way she pretty much starts acting crazy on the end of the leash. I can eventually (and more and more) get control of her by just keeping a tight leash. Wondering other options for helping her to ignore other people/kids/dogs while we're out.

Do you marker train with Suzzie? Does she know sit or down?

Approaching people is a great chance to work on those commands and proof with distractions (obviously puppies have short attention spans, but hey, a training opportunity is a training opportunity).

I have found that by doing things like working on a sit when people were approaching with Neb when he was younger, it helped him to generalize that people/strangers = calm.

While we were outside, I would play with her to burn some of her energy. Then, when she was being good for me, I'd let the kids out (in your case, maybe do this one child at a time).

If she reacted to the kids running, I'd "pop" her leash with an "AHH!" from me. If she did it again, she'd go in her crate or kennel.

IMO, holding a leash tight is allowing the dog to use it's strength against you and can add to the "tension" of the situation. Either the dog sits with a loose leash or gets corrected.

We let the kids interact with the dog all the time. In calm situations (even though she WAS a puppy), they could play and such, but I did not let the kids run around with her in the yard if I was not ready to control her.

I made a mistake once and my 2 y/o son went face first into the concrete. He went running, I wasn't paying attention and Ginger (our Aussie) ran up behind him and jumped up, pushing him in the back. Not a pleasant site - blood gushing from ny son's nose....

I made sure to let the kids feed the dog. Ginger would have to sit and wait for them to let her go. I would pretend that each of us was eating her food before we gave it to her.

Anytime we go outside or inside, the dog would have to sit at the door while the kids shuffled in first and then she was allowed in after we said, "ok" etc.

Liz Palika was the dog trainer. Google her name and you will find lots of good information. She has a website, podcasts etc. Nice lady but definitely a "dog trainer" lady. I don't know if you've ever met "true" dog trainers. They have a way about them...

In general, though (IMO), all dogs are trained the same. The Aussies are high energy, so they need to run or play maybe more than a Lab, but the training is similar.

No, her house didn't sound like a "fun" house for kids either, but she understands dogs more than I ever will.

I think the idea she was trying to present was that you don't want to set the dog up for failure. The dogs don't HAVE to interact with the kids every time they play.

So play with your dog, maybe work in a little calm interaction with the kids and when it's time for the kids to run around, put the dog away.... Suzzie will be ok.

fwiw- Two years later, Ginger is very much still a puppy but significantly more calm. She loves to play with the kids and, while I'm still out there, we don't need a leash anymore, the kids can throw the ball and she will happily bring it back to them (most of the time) and drop it when they say, "Drop" (most of the time). I don't let them chase the dog for the ball or play tug of war with the dog, but otherwise, they are the stereotypical kids with dogs.

Also, I'm sure I did and do plenty of things wrong. The way I look at it is I picture in my mind what I expect of the dog. If she isn't doing something "I" think she should do, it's my job to teach her what I expect. First by motivation- food etc- then by correction after I know she understands me.

Ed's videos and ebooks have been excellent resources for me.

Reading your daughters' reactions...

I would keep kids and puppy separated for now.
I know they are desperate to play with the puppy.
They have the rest of this dog's life to play together.

Until the pup has a solid "down" command, I wouldn't bring them together the way you are.

WHY?

The dog is learning very bad habits that will become much harder to break as the dog ages.
Additionally, it worries me to hear that your little girls are becoming frightened of the puppy.

You want to set them up for a lifetime of confidence and security around animals. Just as with a pup, the foundation experiences with dogs can be life-altering and have tremendous impact on their attitudes towards animals for the rest of their lives.

Most people you meet who dislike or fear dogs as an adult, had a negative experience when they were children. Many times, the negative experience was actually very minor like being chased, even by a playful puppy, can morph into being persued by a rabid dog in the mind of a child. That image can color every future experience with animals.

I would keep the children and the pup seperate, unless the puppy is nice and sleepy after a long play session, and then allow quiet stroking and petting.

After dinner is usually a great time for this, because everyone is mellow, pup and kids.

Work on "down" "sit" "fooey", etc, without the children present, and then with the children quietly playing on the sidelines.
Once the dog is VERY reliable (in a month or two, probably), you can begin allowing more high energy interaction again.

My son and dog play together all the time.
At this point in the game, I can permit them to play with minimal supervision.

BUT that was a long time in the making.
She is 15 months old. She was not permitted to play off-leash with my son until she was almost 12 months old.

She had to learn that NEVER, under any circumstances do her paws or her teeth touch the boy. EVER.

She also had to learn to respect my son when he tells her to lay down or go to her kennel.

Once those things were in place, I could trust them to play together, to include a little play tussle here and there, and running through the yard back together. (See my Danke kills a box video, for example.)

A different dog and child though, and I wouldn't permit it.
My son doesn't mind a few wipe-outs, and Danke is incredibly quick on her feet and can avoid being tackled by a five year old.
My son is also incredibly intuitive with animals, and Danke adores him. She dotes on him, protects him and guards him, but she also obeys him.

Alyssa, this is good advice. If you remember, we have another dog that's older and milder. The girls aren't generally afraid of dogs, but they are worried about getting hurt by Suzzie. I think you're right though. It's probably best to keep them separate for a while. I'm working on the down command often. She can hold it for a while (like 5 minutes or so) as long as I keep reinforcing with rewards. I'm still working on getting her attention and getting her to sit and down while distracted. I know she'll get better with age and more work. The whole family is putting pressure on me to let the kids play with the puppy. I just need to keep reinforcing to them too that this couple more months of training is important.

Disclaimer: I don't have kids. In fact, I don't even really know any kids. But I was a kid once, so I'm trying to think of ways to help you.

Is there a fun calm game the girls might enjoy playing with the dog?

Teach your girls how to mark (they can use their own mark, for example "good" instead of whatever you use so it doesn't mess up your training). Then they can hand her a treat. Teach the girls to place the treat in the center of their hand and hold their hand flat (like you would for a horse) so puppy teeth don't bite, or drop the treat on the floor. When their mark is loaded they can do simple marker training.

For example, my wiggly, jumpy, sort of hyper husky mix is learning to be sent away to a target, then come running back for his treat. It keeps him off of me and busy. I place a piece of paper on the floor (you could also use a frisbee, unopened can of something, whatever you want). Place the object between person and dog. When the dog touches it, mark and reward. You can move the object farther and farther from the girls until the puppy is running away to get to it.

The girls would have positive playtime with their dog, and the dog will learn proper ways to interact with the kids.

I should also note here that Suzzie is probably treating the girls exactly in the same way she treats the boys. The difference is that she is allowed to chase and roughhouse with the boys, but not the girls. She probably does not understand this difference.