Hi All,

Just wanted to post/rant/moan about the quality (or lack of) of the puppy/dog training classes in Lanarkshire (outskirts of Glasgow).

Now I don't expect any of you to care, but what a washout!!

First visit to classes last night and we visited two so we could get a feel for who was best.

The first class we went to the guy was so arrogant because he'd been training police dogs for 40 years (so he said) and would only ever train a dog with a choker! NO OTHER COLLAR ALLOWED IN CLASS!! Yank and Crank. No treats. No toys. Where's the fun? Seemed to me he just bullied the dogs into submission.

Couldn't beleive it so walked out (did notice that they sold choke collars at the class so some money making happening there and also his statement about them "training the handler to train the dog" was crap cos if that's the case why does he care which collar I use?

Second class was a shambles! Now the first class at least had some semblance of professionalism, not much but some.

This second class was a joke from start to finish, however I did like the woman there a bit better as she has many of the same ideas as Ed (but didn't like the use of prongs) but none of the skills and organisation I'd expect to see.

I did get one good tip from her about heeling (we weren't doing it correctly) and she did emphasise using your voice so that was good.

So what have i learned?

Well I've learned that Ed was right in his Basic Dog OB Video that these classes should only be used as distraction training. My bhoy has basic OB down in the house and park and I've just really started the correction phase with him (he's 7 months) so this might be good timing for this class.

I've learned that I shouldn't expect too much from training classes and that I should continue the (good) work I and my Wife have been doing up till now by way of what we've learned here and in Ed's videos.

I've also learned that if I take this learning process to the next level and gain a good bit of experience, I could provide training classes at a much higher standard and level of professionalism that is currently on offer.

Rant Over

John

Mr. Aiton,

Some times it is good to rant.

Yod did the right thing. You evaluated the training environments and styles you were thinking of introducing your dog to. Too many people take their dogs to all but useless or worse training and stay at it because their objective is 'training' and not necessarily the best interest of their dog.

You can learn a whole bunch from a video, eh?

So, rant on, my man. You learned some valuable lessons and made some sound decisions, and before your dog can be trained you have to be, and you are on the right track. So, good on ya!

A good day to you and your work in progress.

Mike A.

You're ahead of the game man, when I was starting out I didn't know trainer A from trainer B, I just was told that I shouldn't train at petsmart and someone referred me to another trainer that said "if you start the puppy out on a choker you'll never have to go to a prong collar". He didn't believe in using food rewards because you're bribing your dog, and he didn't give the dog a good learning curve... "give command... assist the dog into sit position with one hand on his butt bone pressure point that makes dogs sit while easing his neck back on the choker, then praise him, then just choke him when he doesn't listen" type training. I was ruining the bond with my dog because of the stupid choker n trying to get the dog to heel and expecting too much from a puppy, I regret putting my dog thru those classes, it set too high an expectation for my dog so it was creating alot of frustration with my dog because I wasn't letting him just be a goofy puppy, heck I think I let him be more of a puppy now at 20 months than I did when he was 4 months old. Honestly, I would have felt better about training had I taken him to petsmart for classes, but who knows, maybe I would have never gotten serious about training and found Leerburg and met all the people I've met since then. I have always been the type of person that when I get interested in something, I do nothing but read and research and go out there and try new things until I know as much about the subject as I possibly can. I haven't trained 100 dogs, I haven't been training for 20 years with police dogs or titled 100 Schutzhund dogs or whatever other bragging rights people give themselves, but in 18 months I've learnt more about dogs on my own than most local trainers I've talked to could ever teach me, thanks to reading everything that interests me on Leerburg, watching training DVD's, talking to people on the message board, talking to trainers and decoys off the message board, talking to local people (not local trainers) who have trained their dogs successfully and have their own ideas.

If I can do it, anyone with the time, desire and some common sense can do it. I've met some people who are brand new to the training thing and they are so easily impressed with people they talk to that it's annoying to me. I went to see a trainer the other day and naturally I'm being told I'm all wrong and going way too fast with my dog... my thoughts were basically along the lines of... "my dog has done nothing but improve since day 1, he has more confidence than he's ever had before, we've never set him back even when adding a little pressure on him, anytime he's shown anything negative he's come out harder and more confident the next week, so why should I go back 20 steps and do something that he's obviously not got much drive for when he's doing awesome with the way we've been training him?".

You're gonna start realizing, and I think you have already started realizing, that as you gain experience and knowledge, a good trainer is gonna start questioning the "why" in training techniques. People keep telling me "well you should do this with your dog"... if you ask em "why", most people can't give you a real answer, it's just what they've been told is the way to do it so they take it as gospel. Personally I'm not a very argumentative person, so if someone tells me something I don't agree with, I make a decision... can I deal with their irritating training methods, am I still getting what I want out of training with them? Or are they so closed minded and high on their pedistool because of all their training experience that they're not gonna work with my dog the way I want? The guy I train my dog with is great, he has awesome ideas, we think along the same lines on protection training, he decoys my dog the way I want him to and I do what he wants for his dog. When you find someone good to train with, you're gonna make so much progress on your dog. You kinda keep eachother on the right track.

That's my rant for the morning to chime in with yours <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

John,
With each class you attend ( for better or worse ) you'll at least gain the ability to decide how you want *your* dog trained - and a good habit to develop might be to observe a class in session before you sign up for it. If you don't like the type of training that they do, don't sign up for it.

And if you think about it, all training advice is like that. The internet gives you the ability to get a lot of opinions on a subject quickly, but it's up to you to decide which one you want to follow. Even more difficult with the internet is deciding if the opinion being put forth is even valid in any way, as there's plenty of people that are eager to put forth their pet theories as fact when they have zippo experience to back them up ( that statement is not meant for anybody here, I just spent the morning on another fair sized GSD board and I came away scared at how bad the advice given was.... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> )

Tell me about it!!!!

My Post

This is in Manchester and I have experienced everything you've mentioned aswell- and NO PRONG COLLARS ARE ALLOWED!!

We'll all have to emigrate <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi,
I'm just North of Glasgow, I use Prongs on my 2 Shepherds...no problems. The classes I atttend are not overly serious..........big on socialisation but open to Leerburg influence( My doing) and also Cesar Millan influence

John

I hear where you are coming from. Not the greatest classes here either. All it is, is food, food, food. No corrections, and no praise! Where do these people get their ideas I'll never know.
At the moment the only two people I will take advice from is Mr. Ed Frawley & friends (great videos!) ,and Cesar Millan (great program!). Until then I go to these rather lame classes, pretend like I'm paying attention, but do my own thing! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Hi John,

How far north of Glasgow? Just wondering if it's close enough for me to attend?

How you getting on with your sheps?

Cheers

John

So what's the story with this Cesar Millan dude? First I've heard of him (that's not saying much right enough)?

Tree hugger or does he actually know what he's doing?

Cheers

John

<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />I hear you all; however I think you are missing the point. Moreover this is nothing personal, just a reality check. However, in the absence of the ideal solution, the one you want, or prefer, you will always be left with one thing and that is choice, having a choice in the matter is your prerogative, why waste your time and get all worked up.

We all have the tendency to look over the fence and compare, our training to theirs. Never the less if you cant have it. Why not make the best of it, of that what’s available to you, handlers are 75% ( wait, just now I have to give proof again) the biggest of the equation, in getting the dog trained, the rest is just methodology and time spent, performing the rituals of training. So, maybe if you change your attitude, and look past the person, and only look at what he or she has to offer, then just maybe you will have a trained dog by Christmas this year already. Instant gratification and personal gratification has no place in dog training. IMO, It’s the handlers that bite the bullet and shut up, and beg to be taught, that get the best out of the training and the dog, and not the one’s who keep criticising the training.

Then consider this as well; "Criticism is necessary and useful; it is often indispensable; but it can never take the place of action, or be even a poor substitute for it. The function of the mere critic is of very subordinate usefulness. It is the doer of deeds who actually counts in the battle for life, and not the man who looks on and says how the fight ought to be fought, without himself sharing the stress and the danger." - Theodore Roosevelt.

With this in mind, criticising and doing your own thing will waste the opportunity you have, to learn, any training is based on four concepts. No matter if it is compulsion, food, praise, or whatever. There are many roads to Rome; same with dog training. The aim stays the same, to get the dog to perform commands consistently. The thing with food reward training is that the dog must be underweight to get the best results, say 15%, and only get food whilst training, in order to get the best results. Food reward training is very powerful; the circus uses this with lions, bears, elephants and tigers, I want to see someone put a collar on those babies and choke them, or praise them only, and delivers the trained equivalent. Its all in the mind.

Food reward training has four outcomes:

1) Getting you from the unknown to the known, by incrimination
2) Developing Reflexive behaviour, automating skills, via repetition with food
3) Habit forming, any action consistently repeated eventually becomes a habit, ie - in the dogs case it forms a command.
4) Mastering the concept, it takes insight and patience to master any concept, nothing in life worth doing comes easy.

In defence of food training….
<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />