(I posted this in the USPCA forum before, but not too much traffic there, I guess. Trying again here. Perhaps moderator can delete othr post?)

We have a Chow/Shepherd mix that has been in our house for about two months now. He was adopted from a shelter where he had been for 14 months, with little human interaction, but lots of dogs around. In the 12 months before the shelter he had been with an owner who wasn't home most of the day, and also may have abused him. From what we can tell, he had had only very basic obedience training. He also had a few bad habits, such as jumping up on people. No history of agression, and while in our care, he has never bitten or even shown any agression toward any person.

In the last two months, we have gone through basic obedience training with him, and he will now walk at heel, sit/stay (with distractions) etc. We had a problem with him 'mouthing' our daughter and a few of her friends when he would get excited, but have just about cured him of that now. The jumping up is also a thing of the past. We also had him always go through doorways, and up and down stairs etc. after us, and he does that all the time now, needing just an occasional reminder..

In general, we are happy with his behavior around people, although we keep him away from kids, and monitor his behavior around our daughter. However, we do still have a problem with him around other dogs. He gets very excited around other dogs, will try to go to them, and when he gets close enough, will bark and growl at them. This is when walking him on-leash. Off-leash (in our back yard), he ignores the neighbor's yellow lab, doesn't bark at him, doesn't even look at him most of the time.

After reading Ed's articles (and listening to his podcast during my commute - very cool!), we suspect that the behavior around other dogs when on leash is a function of our inability to establish ourselves as the leader(s).

We would like to 'restart' with our dog, and follow the info on the website regarding the 'ground work': first two weeks in kennel, always on leash, etc.

We do have a few questions on that:

1. Are we correct in thinking we need to establish ourselves as leaders for this dog?

And if we are:

2. Is it a good idea to 'restart' after a dog has been in a house for two months?

3. Because we both work, it is very hard for us to have only person handle the dog at all times, and still spend a good amount of time with the dog. We understand it is important to have only one handler, but how much time does the dog need with the handler to have the ground work succeed?


Comments and suggestions very welcome!

Thanks for your help.

BTW. Since posting this the first time, we have ordered the dominant dog dvd, and the collar.

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He gets very excited around other dogs, will try to go to them, and when he gets close enough, will bark and growl at them.

Question: When he barks and growls, is it an aggressive bark/growl? Does he bare his teeth and lay his ears back and maybe try to lunge at the dog? Does the fur on the back of his nape stand up? Or, is it more like a high pitched playful bark/growl? Does he bow down with his front legs, is his tail wagging when he does this?

You may be mistaking his invitation to the other dog to play as an aggression problem. However, I don't think anyone on this board will reccommend you letting your dog go up to/play with a strange dog that you don't know. Chows and Chow mixes are known for aggression though, so could you provide a more accurate description of his behavior?

-Jenn

Thanks for the reply!

Though I am a new dog owner, there is no mistaking his attitude: it's definitely agression. Teeth bared, lots of growling and a little barking mixed in when he comes up for air....

I have seen him do the 'playful' behavior as well, and it's very different. When being playful, he approaches the other dog, but does not (try to) go nose-to-nose with him. Instead, he displays the behavior you describe: he bows down, jumps around, etc.

More on the aggression: to me it looks to be brought on by fear: he seems to have gotten it into his mind that offense is the best defense and just goes for it. Right now, I don't have a dominant dog collar yet (only a choke chain), and counter his behavior by ignoring it and just continuing on my walk, dragging (and correcting) him as necessary. When I get him 10 yards or so away from the other dog, his agression subsides, and he seems to become very fearful of the other dog: tail down, constantly checking for the other dog etc.

During his agressive spell, he does not really mind me; he will pay attention to some of my commands, but most of them are overridden by the desire to face the other dog.

BTW: He used to be in a private shelter, and though he didn't get along with every dog there, he did spend most of his days running in a yard with a rotating collection of several other rescue dogs.

This is what puzzles me: why did he play and get along with them, why does he ignore the neighbor's dog (when they are on opposite sides of a wire fence), yet feel the need to get aggressive with every dog we meet on our walks?

I have read Ed's articles and listened to some of his podcast, and have decided to go back to the groundwork. But being new to dogs, I would really appreciate some feedback.

Right now, I get the feeling he feeds off my apprehension when we meet other dogs, and takes it from there. I am trying to take a 'I will take care of this problem' attitude when encountering another dog, but I guess his BS meter is on to me :-)

And last, but not least: Other than his dog aggression, he is a great dog. He has not shown agression against anyone or anything else. The dog agression is the only thing we feel we really need to work on, other than that he has picked up obedience training very well.

Frustrated...

it seems to me that there are two issues for your dog. one is pack integrity. pack integrity means survival, so most dogs will demonstrate (or stance) when confronting strangers, especially other dogs. some stance to protect, some out of jealousy, or possessiveness.
the other issue is restraint. restraint breeds intensity. if your dog met these dogs without restraint it is much less likely that he would be aggressive. without restraint typically two dogs will approach, sniff, face-off, and then part ways.
unfortunately for pet dog owners, off-leash socialization is risky at best. what are called dog parks here are actually dog runs and they are not large enough for safe use.
if it were my dog, i would continue my walks and use desensitization to help dog learn to out. to neutralize his reaction to the event (dog approaching), you can use three types of movement: telescoping, paralleling, and horseshoe.
telescoping: walk toward issue until dog begins to react. give a pop to the leash as you say your command for non-aggression, and begin moving away from issue. when you reach a point of non-aggression, move back toward the issue. what you are dealing with here is called the threshhold of avoidance (sounds like a moody blues album, huh?!) by telescoping toward and away from the issue, you will increase the dog's threshhold, which will enable him to maintain non-aggression closer to the stimulus, with practice.
the same is true of the other movements. in parallel, move at a distance where the dog can maintain non-aggression back and forth in front of issue. as dog is able to maintain non-aggression, slowly move your parallel closer to issue.(this works well for passing a fenced dog). as dog's threshhold increases, distance to issue will become slight.
with the horseshoe approach, you come toward the issue at an arc, with the issue at the apex. just as your approach elicits the aggressive reaction, you move away at an arc.
all of these movements are designed to neutralize the dog to the issue. the issue could be another dog, a stranger, a noisy door, a porcelain cat in the garden, etc.,.
your job as handler is to keep the leash loose, only pop it when you are giving your command, and watch the treshhold so you can mark it and work to increase it. it does not matter what command you use, but be consistent. i advise my clients to pick a word or phrase that is common to them, one they are likely to use ('be nice', 'lighten up').
for dogs, pack integrity means pack survival. since they only learn by association, they can only surmise that foreign dogs will pose a threat. where the foreign dog is and how it is moving in relation to the pack are the key issues for your dog. these movements help to allay these issues.
sorry for being so long-winded! these concepts are fairly simple to use, a little more tedious to explain. i hope they help; good luck with your dog and thanks for rescuing him.

Thanks for the in-depth reply!

Whenever I take my dog for a walk, it's always the same route through our neighborhood. If there are dogs outside, they are usually the same dogs. Without knowing it, I may have been desensitizing him I suppose: there is a dog that's on a long line in one of the front yards. My dog would usually go berserk when he saw her, but yesterday was the first time he did get wild, but not uncontrollably so. It surprised me, because he had been absolutely insane in the previous weeks.

I will attempt to put into practice what you suggested, using the dogs in our neighborhood. I don't have a second dog I can try this with, unfortunately. But I should be able to do the telescoping approach. The parallel approach won't work for now, the street just isn't wide enough for that <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Thanks again.

If anyone else would like to chime in with advice, please do! I can't be the only one with a dog behaving like this?

I posted this in the other thread you started, but I'll move it over here since this one is more active. You got some good advice, but I'll share what I've done with my dog aggressive husky/Rott mix:

You're absolutely correct in establishing yourselves as leaders. Having a dog aggressive dog (like I have a husky/Rott mix named Buck) means having a lot of responsibility and most of all, knowing the limitations of your dog. Often, keeping it on leash can exacerbate the frustration for the dog, but is necessary to control it. When I take Buck and my other two to the off leash trails around my town, Buck stays on a long line with a prong collar and the other two are fine off leash. When other people approach, I step off to the side with Buck and get him in a down stay. This way, he looks "boring" and submissive to most other dogs and most just run by. However, there are very very annoying, stupid, and/or ignorant owners who let their dog aggressive dogs off leash (like a 100 lbs male shepherd mix who has tried to mount my Aussie mix, who just likes being left alone, or this very large female chow who just loves to stiff legged posture at Buck, or even this idiot who had his GSD/wolfdog off leash and was wondering why it kept running off *smacks forehead*) and who let their dogs approach mine off leash. I have gotten to the point where before any major posturing takes place (while Buck is in the down stay), I usually say in a deep voice with an alpha bitch snarl "leave it!" to the other dog usually while the idiot owner is 50 yards away saying "Fluffy! Come back here, Fluffy! No, Fluffy!" *sigh*

Anyways, I'd get a trainer to show you how to fit and use a prong collar and give the dog a clear choice: stay in the down stay and ignore other dog off to the side and get a reward (treat/praise, etc) or go after the other dog and get corrected on the prong collar (like a level 8 to 10 correction).

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your job as handler is to keep the leash loose, only pop it when you are giving your command, and watch the treshhold so you can mark it and work to increase it.

I think timing of both the command and subsequent pop (if required) is paramount to even recognizing the threshold,
which yes, we would want to increase...
if I understand your use of "treshold".

If it happens in such a flash breaking it down isn't possible, that's harder obviously...but often something
sooner in the progression of motor patterns was overlooked or unrecognized by the handler as the prime opportunity to
refocus.


motor patterns

i read the info on motor patterns. i'm not sure this dog is having any prey issues; from the description it seems more of a territorial issue.

We've just received the DVD from Leerburg, are watching it now.

From the descriptions on the DVD, I would say our dog displays territorial agression (our neighborhood being the territory), combined with fear agression.