Hi,
My wife and I have a 18 month old female GSD. We have trained with a prong since about 5 months...have tried to do our best with living as pack leaders....but to be honest, my wife has a harder time than me at times being consistent with this...will let the dog on the bed, couch sometimes when I am not home. For the past month though, she's been working with me on not letting our Miah up on any furniture whatsoever...ESPECIALLY our bed...this is a NEVER. Miah sleeps in the crate. She does have limited roaming in the house when we go to work...just 2 rooms. I know that this is do or die groundwork here...but even when it was being done on a daily basis earlier (6mos ago)...she still was showing huge dominance signs.

Here's the deal...Miah has a great obedience foundation. She KNOWS her commands...so I am not hesitant to correct with the prong/e-collar for disobeying. She was trained by the breeder (he works with the Honolulu PD K9 unit) on "basic obedience." He used a prong to train her at 4mos. and she went through a 30 day training program with him. we spent a few days with them as he handed it off to us. Not the best idea to let someone else do this, but we wanted to make sure she was put in line early and didn't know better...so what's done is done.

She's in a Sch club now...very high prey drive...chases bikes only really - this is rare though - and i ALWAYS have her on a long line when we go out in public...will want to go after other dog's balls at times, but knows better now. She gets VERY easily excited and breaks commands when we are getting ready to go outside for a walk...and I ALWAYS reinforce them, but it seems her excitement overcomes the correction (and I am by no means a "softy"). One major issue is that when we are in a group of people, if the others walk ahead...she will yodel and cry...often break a sit or down...and I'm seriously telling you that no correction has gotten her to stop yet (I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs...not enormous..but definitely big enough to give this dog a meaningful correction!)...and I know how to do it. This crying though...it sounds like I'm pulling out her toenails and it NEVER stops....I have literally stayed behind and made her obey me and walked slowly..stopping everytime she cried...for over 2 hours. It just doesn't stop. I never let her win though when she does that...I just go back home and try again. So this is one of the problems...but not the biggie...

I'm scared that my dog has been "overcorrected" by our breeder, who has in turn taught us to over correct...turning her into a mess...a dog that wants to please us so bad, but is SO frantic and worried she will be corrected. when we walk...she will not pull me (but will pull my wife)...but she is looking side to side...ears back...never really paying attention to me or her...but more listening for our feet...when to stop, when to turn. I feel like we are training too much with the prong and not enough to establish a relationship with her. I praise her constantly (verbal/ball - treats occassionally) when she does ANYTHING right...and I will use that high-pitch feminine praise too! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

So...the big issue is that she has been climbing the leash...anticipating corrections and putting her teeth on us. The first time she snarled at me, I went to give her a VERY meaningful correction and she put her teeth on me (never "bit"...but that was MORE than enough for me!). I did the correction...but it didn't really work. She doesn't do it to me too often, but she challenges my wife often...definite rank issues here. I've been told to "hang her"...with a dominant dog collar. We did and she emitted anal discharge as we lifted her paws off of the ground...is this normal? I just did it about a half an hour ago...don't know if it was enough but what should I do here??? I'm confused if this is just plain dominance that I'm dealing with or a case of overcorrection combined with some rank issues...

VERY sorry for the novel...just wanted you to know the background.

THanks for any good advice you can offer...and please don't tell me to read the articles...i've read every one...I KNOW what is wrong with the situation on my wife/dog and rank..so we are working on it...I know she should not ever be allowed on furniture (God knows I tried to convince my wife of this!)...but I don't know about overcorrecting and correcting too hard...does that destroy the bond between owner/dog? She has SUCH a high pain threshold..it takes a very meaningful correction to get her to react (just minor reaction too). Will appreciate any help here...thanks!

just wanted to add one more thing...Miah trains once a week with our Sch club - the helper says she has much potential and has great tracking/obedience...but moves too easily into defensive drive when hitting the sleeve. something we've been working on. She's got solid nerves of steel...and I'm not just a dog owner who wants to brag about his dog's solid nerves...nothing scares this dog...she backs down to NO ONE and NOTHING. her hair raises everytime the door is knocked on...she runs to it barking...which I like and dont want to stop. It is these hard nerves that make me contemplate whether I need to correct harder/differently or whether my corrections are too hard already and need to focus more on bond building. thanks again!

hello; i was once listening to helmut raiser explain his opinion on a similar situation. the handler has a worse problem than yours; her dog was a competitive schH3 who had very high prey and defense. when she would correct him during training he would bite her. the last bite caused nerve damage to her arm. when she was explaining this to dr. raiser she had a special device that she had to use on this arm because of the injury. she was a small person and very determined to make it with this dog. dr. raiser was first astounded that she had allowed this to go on. his advice to her was fairly simple: if the dog so much as threatens you with a growl, put him up. do not correct him because you are causing the reaction which leads to the bite. he said put him up and don't work him. when you feed him, go in and be annoyed, just feed him and tell him to get away. don't be angry, be disdainful. after the set time, go and take him out and work him. if he so much as growls at you, put him up for double the time. and so forth. he emphasized do not fight with this type of dog, it only makes them more aggressive. isolate them. by this you teach them that if they want to be with you they have to follow the rule - no aggression toward the handler.
i don't know if you intend to do schH seriously, but you can use time-outs like this to teach your dog to stop biting, or trying to bite. use her crate or kennel, and when she comes up the leash or does any other dominate behavior that will lead to her teeth on you, put her up. don't punish, just stop what you are doing and put her up. dr. raiser reccomended for the working dog that the first time out be 1 week. then double it every time the dog is aggressive. for pet dogs i would start with a shorter time, but do double it each time. dogs learn by association - if they can't associate to how they will get out (by habituating to the pattern of time) they will associate to how they got in. this allows the dog to see the pattern - every time i get aggressive, the game, or the training, ends. since this is not what she wants, she will try something else. as dr. whitney use to say, a dog will not repeat behaviors that fail. she does not act this way to be removed from the pack - she acts this way to get control of the pack, particularly your wife. as you said, she is becoming immune to the correction. more correction is what is frustrating her and causing this behavior. more correction will not help because your wife is unwilling and unable to do it. i have used this technique many times since learning this from dr. raiser. one extreme case was a very intense male from my breeding. he would get so worked up over the mere presence of the agitator as a young dog that he would turn and bite me if i didn't let him go when he wanted to go. he bit me pretty hard - not to bleed but it left a big bruise on my leg. i grimaced, and said nothing but pfui to him and took him straight to his kennel and put him up. i followed dr. raiser to the letter, except that i started the time outs with three days instead of one week. after three time outs we were on the field and i was deliberately holding him longer than needed. he turned to lunge at me and i saw the light come on in his eyes after he started to lunge. he couldn't stop the lunge but he shut his mouth before he reached my leg! he never tried to bite me again. he was a great working dog, but he was hard for anyone else to handle. he learned that day not to bite me, but he didn't learn that about anyone else! i guess the point there is that your wife and you have to agree on this. when you put her up, ignore her completely. if your time-out is one day or more, when you feed and water, ignore her. do not engage with her at all. repeat time outs as necessary, and double it each time. with pet dogs i have started with even a few minutes, but you must double it each time. sorry for being so long-winded, but i know this problem personally. by being able to fix it, i have had the pleasure of handling some great dogs. your bitch sounds like she could be a great dog. good luck with her.
i'm sorry to write such a book, but also i wanted you to know, that handler also followed dr. raiser's advice and she made it onto the world team that year and went to the WUSV championship with that dog. so hang in there!

Sandhi,

First, i don't think you need to apologize about writing a "book"...I think you saw my novel as well! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Very interesting way of approaching the situation. When you say "put her up"...can you clarify. I am just seeing her, in her crate, but when I let her outside to do her business...am I just to act indifferent and not allow her to go sniffing around? Just let her do it and get her back in the crate? It was weird...right after I picked her paws off of the ground and she came back down...she knew i was ticked off of course, but she ran to her cage as I came to her...and I have NEVER (and I mean never) used her crate as a "punishment"...she's excellent about going to it and feeling comfortable in it...but it was if she was going there for "protection."

I really appreciate your novel <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I'll let you know when I am going on my own "book" tour...maybe we can tour together <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Is this info in Helmut Kaiser's book? I want to train dogs professionally at some point and I would love to title her (going for her BH later this month) and really work with her on her Sch. so i guess I am pretty serious about it. Our club out here in Hawaii is pretty small (only 1 SchIII title and two other dogs that are SchI...rest only BH's).

Thanks for your advice and meaningful reply...much appreciated!

Quote:He used a prong to train her at 4mos.

Quote:I'm seriously telling you that no correction has gotten her to stop yet (I'm 6'2" and 195 lbs...not enormous..but definitely big enough to give this dog a meaningful correction!)...and I know how to do it.

Quote:So...the big issue is that she has been climbing the leash...anticipating corrections and putting her teeth on us. The first time she snarled at me, I went to give her a VERY meaningful correction and she put her teeth on me (never "bit"...but that was MORE than enough for me!). I did the correction...but it didn't really work.

Not making fun, but when something like corrections stop working, applying more force is not the answer. For me, correcting a puppy in OB at 4 months is nuts.

When you say she "knows" her commands, try this, and see if she really does, or knows the situation and pattern.

When she is out in the backyard wandering around and is far away, ask her to down. If she downs immediatly, she knows the command. If she comes to you first, or anything but down, then she doesn't know it, in my opinion, to be corrected for disobedience yet.

A correction is an interruption. You need to correct enough to stop the unwanted behavior, then change gears and pay the lady. There is research out there on escalating corrections (I can't find it for some reason) but one of the points is what you are seeing with the escalation of force.

Here are some things I would do. After you take the little test above, my money is on failure (sorry) Go back and try teaching the dog over again using markers. Ed has a video on this.

It is a bit difficult re-training a dog that has been over-corrected. I like to use food, and the giving and receiving as a passive form of dominence on my part. I also use a crate, so that the time spent with me is the best. The rest of the time they are in their crate.

The biggest thing is to make the time you spend with your dog good, and not adversarial. Don't take the walks where she loses her mind, and you are correcting and argueing. Start small, work on the OB. Start by not feeding for a day, then do some OB if she has a whatever attitude, put her in her crate, don't feed her. Next day, or later on, try again. I like to try as often as my schedule will allow. When you do get good stuff, feed her about a quarter of what she normally gets.

As far as the coming up the leash goes, and all the hanging, try this way. I think it is your over-correcting that has caused this, and by using markers, you will see this go away. The issue with the wife, well I don't know you, so that is hard for me. A lot of people's personalitys are too soft, whether for corrections, or for witholding food. I have a lot of clients that sound a bit like you folks. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I hope it all works out for you.

no, this is not in his book. but i have read his book and there is much there to help you in your understanding of aggression. dr. raiser is very good with aggressive dogs. you should also read ivan balabanov's 'advanced schutzhund'-he talks a great deal about proper motivation. your dog needs proper motivation. she ran to her crate for security - she does not know how to understand this escalation of correction. her other choice would have been to lunge at you and bite you - it's good in way that she ran instead, but you don't want to continue this. this is a mistake. it is o.k. to make mistakes, just don't make a habit of them.
she ran because she was overwhelmed by the correction. we do not train successfully in schutzhund if we overwhelm the dog. you must teach her that nothing can overwhelm her, and that you don't need to overwhelm her. outthink her instead (i'm not sure if that is good english). she will learn to respect your rule - no aggression toward the handler - and still have that aggression to direct toward the agitator. in this way she will look great in the bite work. this is not so easy to accomplish with a female. they are more sensitive. with a male you could possibly get away with making alot of correction mistakes. with a female it will take a little more finesse but the end result is quite beautiful to see. a strong hard female is more unusual but worth the effort. good luck with her and keep in touch.

Thanks for the reply Jeff. I assure you that she knows "down, come, sit" like the back of her "paw." She really is not like this very often at all...but the fact is, she IS displaying this behavior and one time is enough to make me want to know what is going on and what we could be doing wrong here. She's an excellent dog...very friendly around people...awesome with her basic commands...and she will pass your test 99/100...and I truly mean this Jeff...she knows her basic commands very well and i have used markers (use the word "yes") throughout her training...she likes the ball better than food...so i praise her extrodinarily when she does things correctly. But when this dog is tired or when my wife is handling her...and she breaks a command...she knows a pop (and not a huge correction by any means - especially when my wife has done it) is coming on the leash...she will - not often - but will occassionally climb the leash and snarl...sometimes putting her mouth on her and once in a great while...myself. I have been extremely worried about this since it's onset and I've made a huge effort to praise her and let her know that it's not just "silence" when she does well and "correction" when she does wrong. I really do understand that you never "correct" a dog before they truly know the behavior...I've watched 4 or 5 of Ed's videos...i can't go back in time and change what the breeder started, so I just want to get back on track with her. 99% of the time...she is a wonderful dog...loves us...very great watchdog for us...listens very well...but bc of my mistakes and previous mistakes by others...something went off track here...so I appreciate your advice and KNOW exactly what you are saying when you said escalating the force of the correction is just going to agitate the situation...I agree...just am confused when she does that (snarl, etc)...when is it okay to let a dog do that to you??? I assume never...but just am unfamiliar, so i want to know if putting her in a crate or ending a play session is "enough" to let her know not to do it EVER again.

so you think just heading home from a walk if she gets all excited like that is the solution? I really am at a loss here...I no longer correct her for this bc i know it won't work (to stop the crying). someone from the club told me to use mint spray when she cries...i'm hesitant to incorporate these solutions bc they seem like a fix to the sympton, not the problem...but I don't know (obviously) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

again..thank you.

Thanks!

Explain the tired thing to me. How long is she being worked? The thing with the wife, is she scared of the dog? Also 18 months is a weird age and weird behaviors show up for sure. My GSD at 18 months commited many crimes. I often thought the end was near for her, she was really bad just to be bad. It went away, and she is OK now. Not saying yours will, just that mine did.

in reference to the noise she makes, there is another thread about this. some very good dogs will become very vocal when they feel they are being held back, or restrained. she wants to be with or ahead of the group, not behind it. she has high drive, she is dominant and competitive - she is voicing this. some dogs are vocal in this regard, others silent. it seems to be in the breeding. for me it is a good sign, and i would not correct her for it. you could intervene, and that is where your club member suggests mint spray. i would use just water. spray it at her when she whines. it is not meant to punish but to distract. there are other interventions - you can be creative. it is a noise or action or movement designed to distract.

Jeff...by tired, i mean tired and hot...i live in HI, so we have a lot of sunny days...and hot days. and no matter shade or not, it is still hot on a dog, even in the evenings. i try to work her in short increments and then let her play (i'll do 2-5 min. obedience, then play some ball)...then a few more sessions like that...so towards the end of the hour...she will get pretty tired. I've been working her longer than usual bc my club trainer said she has a nice bite, but tires too quickly and needs to learn to breathe correctly...could be out of shape (she's 73lbs...so i don't think the weight is an issue)...but that's why she is tired. so if i give her a down command and she breaks it when she's really winded, she will snarl after i say "no" and reach in for a correction. And in all honesty, i do NOT try to over-correct. If the offense is minor, then a minor correction will do. i guess that I just may have been a bit "wet behind the ears" when we started with her...and really took my breeder's training advice to heart. looking back...until I intervened with marker training, he seemed to be a bill koehler crank and yank professional...not what I want in my dog training. I want my dog to WANT to be near me on a walk....not to be looking around frantically...scared she'll be corrected for messing up. The bond is there...somewhere...but needs a lot of work. let me know what you think on the tendency for the handler aggression when tired though...i'm interested to hear what you have to say...thanks!

Sandhi...I'll try the water...I heard that too. To be honest...I've been told by many club members...and even Ivan Balabanov (wrote him and got some good feedback from him) that most of the qualities i've described, even the whining, are good in a Schutzhund dog. so i agree with you and don't really need to stop it, but it is really annoying when walking her and she looks at me, then at the group ahead, then at me (repeat 20,000 times) all while whining incessantly. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> it's just tough and although I like a well-driven dog, i believe that this can still be a good quality without controlling how and when she can be walked. but i will give the old H2O a try! so thank you! I'll let you know how it works...

basically...ive decided to really build her confidence and our bond together as much as I possibly can and in any way possible. if it means just going in the backyard on a long line and flat collar and calling her name...praising (marker) everytime she looks at me and comes, then that's what I'll do. Jeff may be correct...although she does very well most every time with basic commands, she may need more work on this and it could be an excellent way to build this bond back up.

thank you both! (better get some sleep...im in HI and it's even getting late here! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />