Howdy all! I am new to the site and seeking help so I can keep my 2 year old GS, Lizzie. I will try to take my heart out of my fingers and relate background and facts only.

Liz was added to our home at appx 8 weeks of age, joining a 1 yr old male boxer and two 6 yr old pekes. Most people will tell me our reasoning for getting the 4th dog was soo dumb...she was bought as a companion for the boxer as I and my husband are in our 60s and not able to give the boxer the 'exercise' he needed.

Well, Sherman, the boxer upon her arrival says, "Wow thanks for me". We had Sherman neutered very shortly after her arrival as we did not want any mixed up pups and also for his health. She was his 'girl' from the get go and still is. He will let her gnaw his jowls, legs whatever..it's ok, because the two are like father and daughter..they both swap kisses while the other sleeps (I have never seen such human-type love between 2 dogs). No problem here right??

People wise, Lizzie is my dog..a mama's girl..sleeps on mama's bed, gives mama kisses and obeys me better than the hubby...but yes she is a pet, a 68 lb, 2 yr old lap puppy.

THE PROBLEM started about 6 months ago with one of the male pekes (the blind one she lets snap at her..whatever.. and it is like 'you poor baby'. The other, Jasper (about 8 yrs old now and thank goodness on the chubby side)she has viciously attacked 3 times, just yesterday being the 3rd.
She will 'sit' next to him in the kitchen for treats and watch me put food in his mouth, no problem. I cannot understand it. Yesterday, she broke down a rotten picket in the fence and all 4 got out into the alley (apparently no problem while out together) and one at a time on their own came back in. Jasper was the last to come back through the 'hole'. As soon as he got through..she jumped him. Slung him in the air and beat him on the ground as though he were a rag doll. My husband beat her over the back with a hoe handle..she would not let go, he kicked her, she would not let go. She somehow nipped his fingers and went back to Jasper while he was still in the air. I broke the handle over her back or head or whatever..she finally let go. Of course all the time screaming..Lizzie NO..Lizzie Leave It. Jasper is o.k. just a little sore as she got him in one place on his wide, fat back rather than repeated 'bites'. The attack before this was about 8 weeks ago. A Sunday afternoon Lizzie and I lying on my bed watching a movie. Either I or hubby had left the den gate open and Jasper comes and hops up on mama's bed...that's all she wrote..the poor boy knew he was in trouble but only made it to the hall way before she nailed him. Ergo my 2 broken knuckles on right hand as i'm typing (guess I hit her on her bony head).

I love both dogs and want to keep them both, of course. I know no one that I would trust to adopt either out to.

QUESTIONS: Is this simple jealousy? Pack aggression? Can the german shepherd be trained to live with Jasper in some kind of peace (cannot keep them separated 24/7). I am reading all I can fnd on shocking collers. Some say they are cruel, some they hurt others say not at all. It seems to me that in the middle of her 'eating' the Peke..she is going to have to be hurt to let go of him. My goal is to rid her of the behavior.

Any and all suggestions will be appreciated. I will be happy to give further info on the history of thse two if needed for a full understanding of the situation.

Also would like to pass on to others...Old broads should not hit dogs with their fist..I promise you their heads are harder than your bones....lol <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

Carol-

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Thank you,

Patrick Hennigan
Moderator

Carol, as per the rules of the forum, all poster must post using their real first and last name.
Please go to your "My home" area and correct this ASAP.
Your attention to this matter would be appreciated!

Will Rambeau
Moderator

I am not a professional. I have had one german shepherd mix and one full blood shepherd as my history of 15 years working and learning about dogs/behaviour etc. I hold the GSD in high regard.

I don't want to resist my urge to respond. Four things jumped out at me on your post.

1. Companion to the boxer? What were the 2 other dogs serving as? It is my opinion the GSD is out of your league given what you have written about your experience with dogs. If this dog was the only one you had and you were able to give it the attention it deserves, then fine. But it is my thought you are doing this dog a disservice. The dog will do you a disservice in return.

2. A 2 year old shepherd requires (in my earnest opinion) more focused exercise than just "playing around the yard" with the boxer.

3. If this shepherd does not have the required focused obedience, training, and exercise to challenge its attention and daily living, it will likely engage in destructive behaviours. This is what I believe you are experiencing with the little dog becoming a rag pull (subordinate) for the GSD.

4. Beating a dog on the back with a hoe IS NOT the way to break a dog fight. Please research the articles Mr. Ed Frawley has written about dog fights. You are fortunate you were not seriously injured.

Basically, you've got a young female that is starting to mature and challenge the older dog. This is dogs being dogs to a degree, but you as pack leader get to decide when and who gets to fight. There's a couple of pretty good articles by Ed on how to break up a dog fight (just got his Dominant and Aggressive Dog DVD the other night and watched the whole thing), but more importantly, you *must* be a strong leader to the dogs. Wolves in the wild have minor squabbles but out and out aggression towards each other doesn't typically happen as it is detrimental to the health of the pack. You as the pack leader get to say when there is a fight, especially when you're around. Don't run in screaming "No Lizzie, no!" That will just up her drive and excitement. In a very deep voice, "roar" at them to stop but no more than a few times. My three neutered males rarely fight, but last night, I was in my office and I hear a growl and the "rawr rawr rawr!" of a fight in the living room. My Mal and my husky/Rott mix had gotten into it, probably over a cow hoof. I immediately walked in calmly and assertively and roared at them "NO! Lay down!" and they instantly separated and the Malinois rolled over on his side in submission and the husky/Rott (the alpha) layed down and didn't make eye contact with me. If they are really super serious, that won't always work so read up on the articles on dominant/aggressive dogs and how to break up a dog fight. But being a very strong leader and giving them the exercise they will require will go a long way in not starting the fight in the first place.

To give you an example with the exercise. My husky/Rott mix is dog aggressive and so when we go out to the trails around town, he stays on a long line leash and a prong collar. He must lie down and stay when other dogs pass. A few weeks ago, it was unseasonably warm (80ish) and he has a black thick husky coat and the majority of it wasn't shed, so he was getting quite warm. We had been walking for at least 45 minutes and this dim witted golden retreiver runs up to Buck on his down stay even with his owner and me and my fiance calling him away. Buck was tired enough from the exercise and heat that a challenge was not first on his list of priorities (a nice swim probably was instead). Run your dogs into the ground and they'd probably sleep rather than fight.

Carol,
Read the entire site on rank and dominance, as well as aggression. I agree with most all of the prior posts. I have 3 dogs, and I think it is too many, so you can expect to continue to have serious problems if you don't make major changes. I love my dogs very much, but when you let a dog on the bed, it really undermines all your authority, so that has got to stop. You say you cannot separate the dogs reliably, but you will have to, at least until you have explained the new lay-out to the GSD. I have not used an e-collar, others will comment on that, but you have to start with basic obedience. If you are strong enough to disengage the fight, you are strong enough to handle her on a prong.

I did go to "my home' but do not see a way of changing the Carol999 to Carol Norton. I saw a number of things that I could edit but not my user name. I guess I need to re-register.

Thanks so very much for your time in respondng to my post. I have read them all and taking it all in. Hubby and I went over to Midland today and got Liz a muzzle just for starters over next few days when they may HAVE to meet as we both are having medical procedures this Thursday. Also spoke with a trainer at the Petsmart while there. She was very adamantly against the shock coller but liked that we have the pronged and suggested keeping it on her.

Also, she insisted to even begin with undoing the harm I've done to Lizzie..no more getting on my bed, no more eating tidbits at the table. There are several more 'bad' habits I am sure that I have given her by treating her like a pet from the beginning, not thinking about the 70+ lb animal I was eventually going to have to deal with.

This date begins both my and Lizzie's re-education on human/animal cohabitation. She is a very intelligent girl and capable of learning new standards. I may not be as smart, but am equally endowed with determination. I raised two children under what I called 'disciplined discipline', surely I can do this with a dog. The rules do not change from a.m. to p.m. nor day to day....did not take long for my kids to know what behavior brought a reward and which brought unfavorable consequences.

I shall read through all of the postings related to any of my and Lizzie's problems. It is going to be a difficult road for her to accept me as the Alpha female, but if it can be done...we WILL do it. I do not expect any overnight miracles and will not let my guard down again for poor Jasper's sake...like..look Lizzie is actually kissing him...no..she was just reminding herself of the 'taste' of him... <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Carol,
I HIGHLY reccommend you get a crate for Lizzie. This is the most effective way to keep her seperated from the dog she picks on, it also helps establish her pack rank, and goes hand in hand with you re-laying the groundwork (or fixing your old mistakes). Also, never let her loose with the other dog, if she is out while he is, keep her on prong and lead so she knows YOU are in control ALWAYS. Definately read the articles suggested above.

Good Luck.

Hi Carol-

As I am likely the least knowledgeable of all the respondees I will refrain from giving any advice, but rather just share my experience in the hopes that my happy ending will banish any thoughts that fixing this problem is beyond you as some have perhaps implied.

I stepped in and assumed the care of a 100lb male gsd of undetermined age and background, who it came to be known, clearly had SOME protection training (formal or otheriwse) the end result of which was a unpredictably human agressive dog. While I am younger and larger than you, at the time I knew very little about dogs, and my living circumstances (small apartment in Manhattan) made any sort of training that much more challenging. I DID bend over backwards to run the dog twice a day, either a jog together or a vigorous session of ball retrieve. If this isn't practical for you to do, could you hire somebody to run/play with/throw balls to the GSD? That might help a lot

Ultimately, by reading up on dog behavior often at this site, getting the right tools, applying lots of patience and consistency, the situation became 99% better and the dog was the best thing in my life till he died a year later.

So while our problems are not identical, yours is certainly solveable. You have a yard and a husband. I hope you are not discouraged (it doesnt sound like it based on your last post) because the end result of so many dogs running around harmoniously sounds like a great situation. One I wish I was in.