I am looking for suggestions for training running contacts. My dog is a medium sized herding mix who doesn’t like to slow down. We started with the two on two off get a cookie approach and this worked great in the beginning, but he no longer has any desire to stop and wait for a cookie reward. The best reward I’ve found is simply running the course. Problem is, he frequently misses the contacts and when I stop him frequently it kills his drive. I have read Ed’s suggestion of hoops, but I do not think this will work for my dog.

Thanks in advance for any advice
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My GSD is crazy high drive, so I started the 2o/2o with the clicker and food, but as soon as she got it, STOPPED with the food and moved onto the motivating tug toy as the reward. MUCH closer to the real excitement at a trial and running the course, but they STILL have to learn to control and WAIT WAIT WAIT until they get the click/rousing game of tug. If the reward for STOPPING and WAITING is truly worthwhile, they will learn to work thru the 'wait' to leap for the reward.

Then comes a trial with no toy available. You HAVE to decide your criteria on the course for contacts. And you HAVE to run them just the same as in class, training, matches, your back yard. If your dog DOES blow the contact you MUST NOT JUST RUN ON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You have to somehow 'mark' the wrong contact. I just have to stand up, say 'BRETTA' in a shocked voice while STILL STANDING AT THE DOWN CONTACT, and I swear I can see the 'oops' in her eyes.

I really had to do this while we in Novice a few times, cause the tunnel was the next obstacle, just sitting there 'calling' her name, so she saw it as she was tearing down the dogwalk and then right to it. But I was still back on the downside, gave my shocked 'Bretta!What are you doing you nutdog!' and she looked back at me, went 'uh, oh' and came back to flip back on the down contact for a perfect 2o/2o! Course it was a fault. But that isn't what mattered. What was important is she had to THINK, she knew EXACTLY what had been done wrong, and she came back to fix it (not being 'rewarded' by instead going on to whatever equipment she wanted next.)

Since Bretta is just over 2 years old, she still 'tests' the contacts. But I KNOW what I expect from her, each and everytime. And when she does it properly, we do go on quickly, and when we do not, the 'game' stops until she comes back to me (I try not to have her get back on the equipment, but she's pretty fast!) give her my 'What did you do????' voice and then we tear off for the rest of the course.

One thing I know in Novice, Open and even Excellent A is agility can NOT be just about Q'ing. Heck, you can get your legs with quite a few mistakes and time faults. What MY GOAL is, are things we are working on. Great 'stays' at the start. ME not rushing her and causing her to knock bars. Her down contacts, all THREE of them!

And breaking it down like that is a huge help for me. Because rather than stressing about the entire course, and Q'ing (or not LOL) I am SO PROUD if she nails all 3 contacts, cause I know how hard that is for her. Or if she DOES wait at the start until I release her. Of if all those darn bars stay up!

BTW, I live in the northeast and train/trial with many of the top dogs/handlers in the USA. Almost all of them train the 2o/2o and their dogs have crazy drive. It's just easier to have a quick release on a 2o/20, than take a gamble that the 'running contact' thing is as clear to the dogs. And the people I do know that have the running contacts have CRAZY smart dogs (Border Collies?) and train WAY more than I'm able to. Really the 15 minutes or so (at least) every day type people.

GOOD LUCK IN AGILITY!!!!!

I help teach agility classes. Could you explain why you don't think the hoop method would work for your dog? I'm curious.

Try putting the cookie reward -on- the equipment. The reason for this is two-fold: first, the only way you can give the dog the cookie by hand is if you're standing right next to the equipment. Especially in USDAA, you want to teach distance work. Distance work comes in handy very frequently(one word: gamblers). If you are in a trial and you are not -rightthereontopofhim- when he's nearing the end of the plank, why should he think he's getting a cookie? Might as well keep running, right?

Putting the cookie on the contact zone causes him to 'aim' for the end of the zone, where the cookie is. This is good; it's almost like using a target in that the dog is headed for this one spot in particular because a cookie is ALWAYS there (except in trials) and your proximity to the obstacle has -nothing- to do with his performance.

This is how I taught my Springer to do running contacts; I never bothered with 2o/2o. Not only has she never missed a down contact in competition, I can literally send her to the dogwalk from 20' away and she will complete the entire thing and hit the contact, no matter what I'm doing.

Running contacts and the hoop method CAN work, but in my experience it takes TONS more daily/weekly/monthly training than most of us are willing to put in. I also know people that put down those foam swimming pool float 'sticks' along the contacts to teach their dogs a different stride on the contacts. A stride that naturally will take the dog into the contact area AND (with alot of training) get that muscle memory going so the dog always hits it.

I personally never put food on the contact itself. I feel it's just another cue we have to fade away AND (as mentioned) there's never food on the contact in at trial! So if the dogs running fast, sees there's no treat (reason to stop) I wouldn't be surprised if my dog popped off.

It's why I teach the 2o/2o as a CLEAR position at the bottom that earns a 'click' and shouldn't be as reliant on MY body position or my dog seeing food somewhere in the yellow. My dog has a 100% 2on/2off at my house and at training. Always and perfect.

But, no shocker when we got to a trial she lost her mind and didn't 'nail' it at all! She didn't jump over it (frankly she did a perfect running contact LOL) but her focus and control of the CONTACT obstacle was zilch. All her concern was about the tunnel that was just past the dogwalk and IF it was a trap, she took it without any guidance from me! I was standing there kind of shocked, cause I KNEW she had perfect contacts, as I watched her tear to the tunnel.

So I re-learned what I knew, and that a TRIAL situation causes different behaviors to crop up. And lowering my criteria would only cause problems for me and my dog. Not just for future missed contacts but for VERY possible off courses if she tears over the equipment and is 'deciding' what to take next!

I live in the Northeast and run against some of the most competitive dogs in the USA (World Team Dogs), so my framework and what my goals are not to 'q', but to RUN FAST and Qualify. And all the fastest dogs in my area either have a great 2o/2o (which they hold for such a tiny instance you barely notice it) OR they are people that REALLY train alot (many are agility instructors and trainers).

So I am NOT saying running contacts are impossible, or using the hoop. But I have to look at my lifestyle and training schedule realistically. So with my fast GSD, I want a consistant and reliable contact, and the fact it may allow me to catch up for a sec to re-direct to the next obstacle, is an added benefit I want.

KatherineOstiguy, do you get CleanRun? There's some new training method using a board for running contacts that sounds interesting (Alicia Calhoun ? is using it?) Sounds interesting BUT, also sounds time consuming! And since I would only do it to speed up runs that are already CRAZY fast, it's not worth it to me. I'm not planning on making worlds (but heck, was #16 this year at the AKC Agility Invitational! Just 11 slots away from making it with my older dog).

KatherineOstiguy, how high were you able to get on the lists? I have a GSD. It's so cool how all the breeds will be represented and at what level. Do you also run in NADAC? USDAA?

I only run USDAA - and I'm in Starters. I started Tessie late in (her) life and only started competition quality classes back in January or so. However, she's half-way to her AD with at least three more trials left in the reason, and picked up her JH-B already. (I'm a junior handler.) I plan to branch out to AKC next season as there are a lot of opportunities to do that in my area; plus, I'd like to possibly go for a CD (I have a heavy competition obedience background) and compete in Junior Showmanship. I'm really not much of a NADAC fan, although I've seriously considered CPE and would DEFINATELY run TDAA if I actually had a teacup dog. (22" Tessie isn't much of a toy dog...)

I am a HUGE fan of how the AKC Nationals are being run now. Makes me feel like I actually have a shot of getting there since I'm competing against my own breed members to get there, as opposed to all those speedy Border Collies.

At the moment, I'm not recieving Clean Run as subscriptions don't come cheap and cash is limited for a junior handler. I'm hoping (praying) for a subscription for my birthday in a month!

To be honest, I disagree with your thought of the dog popping off because there is no treat. I would assume you train obedience with food. Does your dog flip out and stop heeling and break stays because he can't smell food on your person? I'd certainly hope not. The dog sees this as a fluke and should continue -- in the event of cookies falling off the bottom of the equipment, getting stolen by other dogs, etc. in class, not once has my dog flipped out because there was no cookie. Also, it is a very small treat, and I generally 'wean' it so that it's not so exciting any more(it's kibble: not a hot dog, not anything great) that the dog will frequently pass it in favor of just continuing on -- this is always rewarded lavishly.

Whatever you decide, you are totally correct: if you take your dog off-course for breaking start-line stays, breaking 2o/2o, whatever: GET OFF THE COURSE. Thank the judge and go on your way. Lowering your criteria at trials makes the 'trial crazies' ten times worse. ("Not only are there people and food and dogs and tents and toys and barking... there's NO RULES!?" You'd get a little zany too!) If your dog is 100% at home, enforce that it's going to be 100% or nothing at a trial.

I fully intend to teach my next dog (when I get one) to 2o/2o. Tessie is just so calm and steady that I've never felt the need to fix what isn't broken. Now that she's picking up speed again, I -almost- wished I taught it... but being young and somewhat fit allows me to keep up with her. Come to think of it, she almost has a 2o/2o on the teeter, except there is no 'two off' portion: she will wait on the end of the board, all four paws on the board, until I release her. I can also ask her to stop on the pivot point, ride it to the ground, and then walk down it ('Wait'), or her default is to just run it until she gets to the end, wait, and then walk off it. I taught the pivot-wait first, which is why I think it's easy for me to 'revert to default' even in a trial situation, but she's also older (eight years) and therefore very consistent and will listen to me well in a trial setting. But this is what's worked for me and Tessie.

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I fully intend to teach my next dog (when I get one) to 2o/2o. Tessie is just so calm and steady that I've never felt the need to fix what isn't broken.

The calm and steady dogs are easier to control on the contacts, but if you do continue with the sport, and end up with a dog that CRAZY loves doing it, you will be in a completely different position! My dog wants to go go go go go, so if I don't make a 'stop' something that is ingrained and absolutely clear, it's off with joy to the next piece of equipment. So whether it's the 'down/sit' on the table, or the slowing for a contact, it needs to be taught, and needs to be clear, and needs to be taught to be fun as PART of agility.

I use treats/clicker to train a TON when I start agility because the click is clear, fast, the treat gets swallowed in a milli-sec and we can quickly move onto something else. But once my dog gets the new behavior, we quickly move onto THE TOY! Heck, I've seen handlers with the fastest border collies still use toys to motivate and make agility even MORE fun! And I think we can all learn from those dratted BC people! Because even though I don't WANT a BC, I want my GSD to be the fastest and most motivated for a German Shepherd out there! So while a BC running clean will beat our times, I will certainly be able to give any of the other breeds out there in our size a true run for money! Have you read these sites? Click Here or Here

Funny cause my first dog was a nice steady and older Lab! And she always ran clean but in the higher levels was BARELY making time. Then I got a fairly steady (but faster) GSD and we got our MACH, and for my current (and 3rd agility dog) I have a CRAZY working line fast GSD who really gets the 'agility is about clean AND speed'. Course with that speed she's not clean as often but that usually cause of handler skills I need to achieve, not that she's not 'in the game' and trying as best she can to whiz thru what she THINKS I want!

Good luck and hope to see you at the Nationals!

No doubt that the steadier dogs are easier on contacts. The great thing about Tessie is that her speed is directly related to how fast I'm going and how well I'm handling (ex. I CANNOT do a blind cross with this dog without losing her somewhat, and according to my instructors it's her, not my positioning; I have to do solid, fast front crosses for 95% of my crosses). This means, if I can lay out a good game plan, I can usually do very well! The problem with Springers is definately 'the nose' and occasionally I will just lose her for a moment as she enjoys a good sniff. This is where we're losing time.

I'd definately take my ESS, and the other Springers I see working, over a BC. If she's warmed up she DOES NOT drop bars. She can take very tight turns over jumps and my position to her has absolutely nothing to do with her possibly dropping a bar. My instructor frequently tells me to 'try it, although she might drop a bar' and it really doesn't happen! She's just very reliable and has been reliable since a young(er) age -- she was FAR more consistent at age 3 than most 3 or 4 year old BCs I've seen.

The problem with Tessie is that she's really not toy motivated. I've been working on this and making progress... she will now play with her Kong outside. Normally she will only play with me in the house. When I get a puppy, I will teach that poor dog that toys are the absolute coolest thing in the known universe. I've had luck with Kongs and food tubes, fortunately, and every once in awhile I can convince her to give her fleece leash a bit of a tug. It's a work in progress. My instructor has taught me how to physically play with her to rev her up with occasional cookies, and it's been a godsend. It's really just an intricate dance of moving into her, encouraging her to jump up on me, lightly shoving her off, she comes back for more, etc.

The problem with Tessie and toys is this: she is completely immune to the "Oh wow, look at this awesome thing I have!" deal. She will sit in front of you and just stare at you, and you can practically TELL she thinks you're loopy. (When she got her TT, she gave the 'aggressive stranger' the exact same look: "Dude, put the whip down, you're really not all that funny.") If you continue, she will simply walk away. She knows (or thinks she knows) what is and isn't fun, and will be quick to show you. I've actually been clicking her for interactions with the leash and other toys -- this worked before when I wanted her interested in tennis balls; now she'll play with those, too. I generally sit the leash right on top of the hamster cage so that it's real nice and smelly, so she already wants to go for it when I put it in front of her.

Katherine:
There are two reasons I don’t think the hoop method is good for my dog. First, he knows the difference between an 8 in jump and a 20 in jump. He also can tell when he passes a jump for the second time after he has knocked a bar and doesn’t just jump because there are two poles there. I think he would be very aware that there was no hoop and he did not have to go all the way down. Second, I don’t think it would be safe for my dog. He is fast and reckless and I think he is likely to go flying down a contact and into a hoop and hurt himself. He won’t aim for a cookie; he aims for the next obstacle cookie or no.

Front crosses...wow. The only time I get to do one is if the course switches back to put me in front. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Distance and layering we have, it’s just those pesky contacts.

Jenn:
“Heck, you can get your legs with quite a few mistakes and time faults.” That must be my problem. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> I run NADAC with him and we have to have a clean run to Q. I’m just glad they allow schooling. NADAC is the only option for mixes in my area to compete. Someday I hope to be rich and travel more.

What you said about dogs with a 2o/2o and holding it just for a second was a light bulb moment for me. I realized I don’t have to get him to stop. He just needs to hold the position for a second... that should be doable...

I’m trying to get a contact obstacle built for my personal backyard use. I think my training will simply come down to practice, practice, practice, practice... I think if I can teach my dog his left from his right, I ought to be able to get him running contacts. I just need to be insistent and consistent. Thanks for your opinions.

Stacey, I've also run in NADAC and USDAA and love the different venues. And though you can get qualifying legs with a few mistakes and time faults in AKC for Novice and Open, when you make it into Excellent you have to run clean then (well, time faults in ExcA, but not when you are in ExcB!). And since they don't call 'refusals' in NADAC (or is it USDAA? or both?) at all, that means you can get a 'clean' run in those venues and Q, when in AKC it wouldn't be 'clean' but you could stil Q with just one (or 2 in Novice I think? Stupid rules, I just try to run clean).

If you are good about the 'practice practice practice' then you have a chance with the running contacts. BUT with a longer striding dog (like my darn GSD) I would really have to us some other training aids to start like the swimming noodles on the aframe to teach her to re-do her stride length so she's 'naturally' step into and out of the contact, or use the hoop. But you are right, you have to eventually fade the aides away, and if I was NOT training enough to REALLY get the muscle memory going, it would not work. Having a really long and big strided FAST dog is just quite a challenge when coming to the contacts.

So it's a 2on/2off for us! <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

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Katherine:
There are two reasons I don’t think the hoop method is good for my dog. First, he knows the difference between an 8 in jump and a 20 in jump. He also can tell when he passes a jump for the second time after he has knocked a bar and doesn’t just jump because there are two poles there. I think he would be very aware that there was no hoop and he did not have to go all the way down. Second, I don’t think it would be safe for my dog. He is fast and reckless and I think he is likely to go flying down a contact and into a hoop and hurt himself. He won’t aim for a cookie; he aims for the next obstacle cookie or no.

A dog adjusting how high he jumps for an 8" jump as opposed to a 20" jump is a smart, well-trained jumper. If your dog jumped a dropped-bar-jump like it was still set at 20", your dog would be completely misjudging the height and you would need to work on that in training. It has absolutely nothing to do with the hoop method. Your dog could still bail from a contact even without the hoop method. The hoop is about the size/diameter/etc. of a hula hoop. It's not going to stop a dog from jumping off. You use the hoops to -help show your dog where to physically be-. You have the option as a trainer of either fading them out, or ALWAYS having them there except in a trial setting. Saying your dog is going to bail from a contact because a silly little hoop happens to be missing is like saying your dog will knock a bar or refuse a jump because it isn't a winged jump. What's on the -sides- of the obstacle should not affect the dog's performance.

You can very easily make a hoop out of the swimming noodles that you use for the 'bar training' on contacts to teach proper stride. You can get regular contact hoops, cut a slit down the noodle the long way, and use it as 'padding' on the hoop -- if your dog knocks into it, it'll be more of a "oof, what was that?" than an equipment-breaking dog-screaming fiasco.