Just started feeding my pup (15 month doberman) raw today. With his dry food I always fed him in the kitchen and he has since puppyhood been used to me petting him while he eats and wags his tail happily and gazes at me if I add more food or an egg. Today I realized him slopping raw chicken on the floor was probably a health hazard so I fed him in his crate (door open).

I walked by to check on him and he looked up and growled at me with a wing in his mouth and gulped it down. He has NEVER shown any dominance or aggression towards me. Ever. He only growls at noises or strange people in the house or yard that he doesn't know and even then this is very rare. He almost never barks (which is making my training him to speak very hard but that is another story).

I have never taken his food away. A few times I tried calling him away from eating to me and he has willingly come. He is very sweet natured.

When he growled I said firmly NO and as he was finished reached in and took out his bowl. He didn't act aggressively at all at this point. I told him to sit and then put him in a down and he obeyed no problem.

My question is should I correct him in some way when he growls and is eating? I cleaned his crate and put him back in while I got some work done (and typed this) and as I am typing he just went nuts against the crate door growling and barking at my cat who he has never barked at who walked by his crate. I can hear him do it as whenever she has in the past walked by his crate he rattles the door but never growling and barking! She is dog savvy and I have trained him to sniff her a bit and ignore her if she comes over and plops herself between myself and him. The crate is downstairs so she may have gone near to sniff at the raw meat smell, I can't see, but she has often sat on top of it looking in at him without him flipping out.

How do I (if at all) correct this possessive behavior? This is literally the first instance of any possessiveness I have seen in him, he will out his toys without issue. Is he just meat crazy? Should I correct somehow? I even ate in front of him before feeding him (I try to do this as a rule). He is very well established (and happily so) in pack order as submissive to me. I surely didn't try to steal his wing. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> Not sure what I might be missing or why he is a nutter.

I don't have kids or anything and I don't mind feeding him only from his crate and leaving him completely alone but I find it really weird that he just lost it and if there is some other way to deal with this than ignore it I'd love to learn about it.

Thanks in advance and I apologize if this may be in the wrong part of the forum or if there are posts about this already, I am reading through the dog aggression articles now in case I missed anything in the past (not needing to memorize them as I have the rest of the site because he has never done this).

This does two things - it tells you that your dog really likes the raw food.

On this issue of taking food away there are differant opinions. From a pack issue a pack leader does not screw with food once it has allowed lower ranking pack members to eat. So feed your dog in the crate and dont screw with it.

From a rank issue I would not tollerate this behavior at 15 weeks. Its a aby and with 99% of the dogs out there it will end if you snatch it up and give it a "WHAT ITF"

But with this said to intentionally do this on a regular basis is counter productive to a good relationship with your dog.

Hi Ed,

Thanks so much for answering this, I really appreciate it! As an aside I am a loyal leerburg.com follower and couldn't have gotten this far in my relationship and experience with my dog without you. Everytime someone comments on how well behaved my pup is I direct them to your site (and it's often!). Thank you.

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This does two things - it tells you that your dog really likes the raw food.

It does and I am thrilled! This was his second raw meal and during his first (and I should have seen a warning right then) when I walked by him he snatched the chicken up in his mouth immediately and wandered 3 feet away from me with it chewing and watching me. With his dry food (Solid Gold Wolf Cub, Canidae or Innova, I tried them all) he would sometimes just stand in front of it and I'd have to coax him to eat it so honestly if he's eating I am happy.

I took him to two vets, full blood panels, stomach x-rays, etc. nothing wrong with him they could find. He is still thin but always high energy and slowly filling out and was eating more the past month before the switch.

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On this issue of taking food away there are differant opinions. From a pack issue a pack leader does not screw with food once it has allowed lower ranking pack members to eat. So feed your dog in the crate and dont screw with it.

I definitely agree and I have never taken his food away only adding egg or more food once in a while without him ever batting an eyelash. I always pet him gently while he ate and he wagged happily and carried on and sometimes I fed him by hand if he was not interested in food. I think I tested how food intense he was at 4 months, 7 months and a year by calling him to me while he ate and then just let him at it. A simple here and he came and I praised gave a treat I was hiding and told him ok eat your food and he ran back.

In the past I could probably have bicycled around him in circles if he was eating something with hot dog in it and he wouldn't have blinked at me, this time I simply walked by him.

I had never fed him in his crate though so perhaps this is what is causing his possessiveness come to think of it. It is his zone maybe? He is crate trained but not in his crate often these days unless I am out (I work from home so maybe an hour or two every few days) so I don't know if he has really built up some strong attachment to it, he doesn't voluntarily go into his crate though he is fine when I ask him to go in.

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From a rank issue I would not tollerate this behavior at 15 weeks. Its a aby and with 99% of the dogs out there it will end if you snatch it up and give it a "WHAT ITF"

But with this said to intentionally do this on a regular basis is counter productive to a good relationship with your dog.

I may have mistyped this but he is 15 months not weeks. If he were a baby I wouldn't hesitate to scold him but having full grown adult doberman teeth in the mind of a barely mature pup guarding the holy golden raw chicken wing (that I still really don't want) is a little daunting.

Which isn't to say that after 10 minutes I didn't take him out and go over some obedience with him calmly and firmly. I am not afraid of him in the least just a little shocked. He has never pulled rank. He sits and waits for me before going through doors, heels up my stairs with me, sits before eating, doesn't sleep in my bed or on the furniture, etc. (and boy can I imagine all of those things going the complete opposite had I not taken the time and read your site). I've definitely never given him a command and allowed him to get away with him not following through once I knew he knew it.

So correcting at his age? Does it matter? In your dominance article you say:

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With older dogs I am not sure it’s worth the fight to win the battle. If I buy a dog that is already aggressive around his food I usually do not force the issue. I still make the dog sit for the food bowl. But with these dogs I feed them in their dog crate or dog kennel. I put the food down and walk away.

With food aggressive dogs I NEVER LEAVE FOOD IN A DOG BOWL and I NEVER FEED A DOG OUTSIDE OF THE DOG CRATE. To do so only courts disaster.

I just wonder because while this may be the first sign of a bigger issue and many more to come it is so completely foreign to his character as I know it and I would much rather snap him out of it now before it escalates if possible but not if it risks his bond with me (which I do feel he is stomping all over right now) or his drives or confidence. I like to think I am a very fair pack leader and he can in fact have all of the chicken wings. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would feeding him by hand (yummy Salmonella) or outside of his crate help in this case and should I even correct (verbally and/or otherwise) do you think?

In any case I am very happy with his less severe reactions (i.e. actually eating voraciously) to the raw diet and have already had some great debates with 'educated' pet owner friends about why raw is often a very good choice ("but my vet told me the only good food is Science Diet" types).

Thanks again for all of the information!

I had a very similar experience feeding raw chicken to my 8 month old (at the time) Dobe. He had never shown any food aggression, even feeding other raw food (specifically the Bravo Raw Diet). I could hold the bowl and pet him without any issues. Then I got the brilliant idea that he needed raw meaty bones (RMBs) to help clean his teeth.

He appeared to hesitantly take the chicken from my hand and then he walked into a corner where he slowly finished it up. I was ready to give him another piece, but I wanted to make sure that he finished the first piece. So, I walked over to where he was sitting to take a peek (everything was gone) and the next thing I know I am BEING ATTACKED by my dog (no growling preceded the attack). He latched hard on to my left forearm and fortunately I was wearing a longsleeve shirt and a sweatshirt or the injury would have worthy of the pictures on the Leerburg Dealing with Dominant Dogs DVD. I was able to grab him by his flat buckle collar and wrestle him down while keeping those chomping teeth away from other parts of my body. The struggle didn't last long, maybe 10 seconds or so, but it felt like an eternity.

No one in my basic obedience class believed that my well-behaved dog had it in him. Since that incident, he has been a model citizen, but then again, I haven't fed him raw chicken wings again. And I don't plan on feeding him any "high value" items that might set him off.

Have you tried the chicken again? Something tells me that our boys look at the world through similar eyes and I'm curious to see how he reacted.

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Hi Ed,

Thanks so much for answering this, I really appreciate it! As an aside I am a loyal leerburg.com follower and couldn't have gotten this far in my relationship and experience with my dog without you. Everytime someone comments on how well behaved my pup is I direct them to your site (and it's often!). Thank you.

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This does two things - it tells you that your dog really likes the raw food.

It does and I am thrilled! This was his second raw meal and during his first (and I should have seen a warning right then) when I walked by him he snatched the chicken up in his mouth immediately and wandered 3 feet away from me with it chewing and watching me. With his dry food (Solid Gold Wolf Cub, Canidae or Innova, I tried them all) he would sometimes just stand in front of it and I'd have to coax him to eat it so honestly if he's eating I am happy.

I took him to two vets, full blood panels, stomach x-rays, etc. nothing wrong with him they could find. He is still thin but always high energy and slowly filling out and was eating more the past month before the switch.

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On this issue of taking food away there are differant opinions. From a pack issue a pack leader does not screw with food once it has allowed lower ranking pack members to eat. So feed your dog in the crate and dont screw with it.

I definitely agree and I have never taken his food away only adding egg or more food once in a while without him ever batting an eyelash. I always pet him gently while he ate and he wagged happily and carried on and sometimes I fed him by hand if he was not interested in food. I think I tested how food intense he was at 4 months, 7 months and a year by calling him to me while he ate and then just let him at it. A simple here and he came and I praised gave a treat I was hiding and told him ok eat your food and he ran back.

In the past I could probably have bicycled around him in circles if he was eating something with hot dog in it and he wouldn't have blinked at me, this time I simply walked by him.

I had never fed him in his crate though so perhaps this is what is causing his possessiveness come to think of it. It is his zone maybe? He is crate trained but not in his crate often these days unless I am out (I work from home so maybe an hour or two every few days) so I don't know if he has really built up some strong attachment to it, he doesn't voluntarily go into his crate though he is fine when I ask him to go in.

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From a rank issue I would not tollerate this behavior at 15 weeks. Its a aby and with 99% of the dogs out there it will end if you snatch it up and give it a "WHAT ITF"

But with this said to intentionally do this on a regular basis is counter productive to a good relationship with your dog.

I may have mistyped this but he is 15 months not weeks. If he were a baby I wouldn't hesitate to scold him but having full grown adult doberman teeth in the mind of a barely mature pup guarding the holy golden raw chicken wing (that I still really don't want) is a little daunting.

Which isn't to say that after 10 minutes I didn't take him out and go over some obedience with him calmly and firmly. I am not afraid of him in the least just a little shocked. He has never pulled rank. He sits and waits for me before going through doors, heels up my stairs with me, sits before eating, doesn't sleep in my bed or on the furniture, etc. (and boy can I imagine all of those things going the complete opposite had I not taken the time and read your site). I've definitely never given him a command and allowed him to get away with him not following through once I knew he knew it.

So correcting at his age? Does it matter? In your dominance article you say:

 Quote:

With older dogs I am not sure it’s worth the fight to win the battle. If I buy a dog that is already aggressive around his food I usually do not force the issue. I still make the dog sit for the food bowl. But with these dogs I feed them in their dog crate or dog kennel. I put the food down and walk away.

With food aggressive dogs I NEVER LEAVE FOOD IN A DOG BOWL and I NEVER FEED A DOG OUTSIDE OF THE DOG CRATE. To do so only courts disaster.

I just wonder because while this may be the first sign of a bigger issue and many more to come it is so completely foreign to his character as I know it and I would much rather snap him out of it now before it escalates if possible but not if it risks his bond with me (which I do feel he is stomping all over right now) or his drives or confidence. I like to think I am a very fair pack leader and he can in fact have all of the chicken wings. <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Would feeding him by hand (yummy Salmonella) or outside of his crate help in this case and should I even correct (verbally and/or otherwise) do you think?

In any case I am very happy with his less severe reactions (i.e. actually eating voraciously) to the raw diet and have already had some great debates with 'educated' pet owner friends about why raw is often a very good choice ("but my vet told me the only good food is Science Diet" types).

Thanks again for all of the information!

my pup who was weaned on raw has never displayed any food aggression at all. it's all just food to him.

but my older rescue, who never had fresh raw food until he was almost five years old, could get growly with any especially prized item, like a deer head. he was a gulper, too, whereas the younger dog is a picky eater.

i never made a big issue out of it, since it happened only rarely. i just figured that having come from eating garbage food all his life, raw food was simply too highly prized by him. and this was a very submissive, sweet-natured dog who never otherwise challenged my authority the rest of his life. my instinct was that it would be detrimental to make a big deal out of it. maybe that was right, and maybe i just got lucky. i'll never know.

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my pup who was weaned on raw has never displayed any food aggression at all. it's all just food to him.

but my older rescue, who never had fresh raw food until he was almost five years old, could get growly with any especially prized item, like a deer head. he was a gulper, too, whereas the younger dog is a picky eater.

i never made a big issue out of it, since it happened only rarely. i just figured that having come from eating garbage food all his life, raw food was simply too highly prized by him. and this was a very submissive, sweet-natured dog who never otherwise challenged my authority the rest of his life. my instinct was that it would be detrimental to make a big deal out of it. maybe that was right, and maybe i just got lucky. i'll never know.

My sister rescued a dog through Save a Sato; this was a "dump dog" from Puerto Rico. He is a mild-mannered, biddable, completely unaggressive little guy, but he too carried off and guarded pieces of raw food that he especially liked, for years. My sister also decided not to make an issue out of it, and after a couple of years of these rare instances of guarding his prizes from the other dogs in the house, he got over it.

We too figured that it was his first food that was actually food, and he'd realize it wasn't his last after a while (which he did).

First of all, your dog is now becoming an adult pack member and testing the waters with you. If I were you, I would nip this behavior asap because he is escalating. First you said he stared at you then gulped the wing. Then it escalated to growling. You know what is next. He is also testing rank by growling at strangers and such in your house. Unless you give him permission to, he should not be growling at anyone, in your house or elsewhere.
My take on this is that you are having rank issues that are escalating with this dog. Dominant dogs will act obedient and perform commands, so this is not inconsistant with this dog trying to gain rank. I disagree with you that your dog is satisfied with his pack rank. He HAS DEFINATELY PULLED RANK. Growling at you was it! Your dog might not even be a truly dominant-alpha dog, but rather just more dominant than you. You said that the idea of taking a chicken wing away from your dog is daunting. He senses that fear in you. He knows he is dominant to you. This has to change (your fear) otherwise your problem will get worse, not better. Also, the fact that you are giving him more time out of the crate, this also gives him the idea that he is expanding his terratory into your realm. What you write about this dog and what is actually happeneing with this dog, based on just what you wrote, are 2 very different things.
How to fix your problem (food aggression) depends on the tools you have in your tool box. But first and foremost, this dog should never ever get an entire meal in his bowl at once, that he can own. I would have him in a sit, and give him little tiny bits at once, having him sit and wait for the next bit to be put into his bowl. I would also have him on a back tie to prevent a lunge attack on you. Lastly, I would have him wait to be released to the bits of food until your hand is away from the bowl. You can later, gradually increase the amount of time your hand is near the bowl when you sense he is once again comfortable with your near his small amounts of food. You build on this exercise by increasing the amount of food he can have at once AND the amount of time your hand spends lingering at the bowl after the release over the course of a few weeks (the time depends on the dogs progress). Your eating in front of him is doing nothing, although many advocate this as reinforcing dominance over food, I have never seen it work with dogs who will growl once they deem threatened while eating. Also, from your posts I gather that this dog has toys laying around (that you say he will give up at will). Your frame of mind as the pack leader should be that these are your toys to take at will, not his to give. Its subtle, but see the difference? I would take all his toys up until you decide you want to play with him with them. Then he should never win them from you in a game of tug for example (if this is a pet dog, not a working dog).
Good luck,
Michelle

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I disagree with you that your dog is satisfied with his pack rank. He HAS DEFINATELY PULLED RANK. Growling at you was it!

I've read somewhere that some dogs/wolves will fight with higher ranking members over food, but they will apologize profusely afterward to the higher-ranking individual for the "temporary" transgression.

After I had my raw chicken incident with my dog, and after I "won" the little scuffle, he approached me in a extrememly submissive manner once I released him from his down-stay and he started licking my hands profusely. Ever since that moment, he has been a model canine citizen, but I have not, however, reintroduced raw chicken pieces into his diet. On the one hand, I feel as though I should leave well enough alone. On the other hand, I also feel as though I should "correct" the undesirable behavior.

From watching the Leerburg DVDs (Basic OB, E-Collar Training, and Dominant Dogs), I would tend to think that Ed Frawley would prefer the former, while someone like Cesar Millan would take the latter approach.

I know if I am going to try to correct the behavior, the timing of the correction is just as important as the correction itself. Here is what I am thinking of doing: Tie him so if he lunges at me, I can back up into the safe area beyond the reach of the lead. Set the the Dogtra remote to a high stem level in anticipation of his higher drive. Give him a piece of chicken. Tell him to "Drop It." If he doesn't comply (I know 110% that he understands the "Drop It" command), tell him "no" to give him a second chance. If he doesn't respond favorably within the 1 to 1 1/2 second interval, give him a nick and take the chicken if it is safe to do so. Give him back the piece of chicken. Repeat the exercise. The third time, let him eat the chicken.

Is this the right approach? Is this worth doing? Or should I just be resigned to leaving raw meaty bones out of his diet? We current feed him BRAVO with some supplements, but I think he should be getting RMBs as well.

Thanks,
Joe