I want to start out this post by stating the obvious so that I don't get blasted...

I understand the importance of prey drive in any protection training.
I understand that developing a foundation in prey before making it serious for the dog is by far the best way to go.
I understand that even once a mature dog is comfortably working in defense or fight that through drive interation it is healthy for the decoy to illicit some prey-oriented response from the dog.

My dog is a 2 1/2 year old bouvier. From day one he has not shown a ton of prey drive, despite lots of drive-building, and he has always been a sharp dog. Definitely not the best nerves. The only reason he wasn't completely washed-out from any protection training was that he reacts very confidently to a threat. Tail and ears are up, he will stare down the decoy, and his avoidance threshold seems to be fairly high. He has had extensive muzzle training and will always choose to engage, even if I am sending him 30 or 40 yards to a passive decoy.

This isn't an attempt at a brag, I just want everyone to understand that when I say his first experiences with a strange helper were defensive in nature rather than prey-oriented, that doesn't mean I had someone corner my dog until be bit in self-defense. He has never been interested in playing tug with strangers, so I let him grow up and he has shown that he is comfortable in protection training.

Lately, as his confidence grows, I see more and more prey-oriented behaviour from my dog during training. He's no more interested in winning the sleeve than he used to be, but as he learns to dominate the decoy, his attitude is definitely changing for the better.
His bark (while still defensive) is definitely getting higher pitched, he's quicker in send-away scenarios... It's difficult to explain, but there's definitely more prey-driven response in regards to the decoy. Obviously he feels more comfortable and I'm really excited about the improvement.

I'm looking for feedback from anyone that's used defensive training to "load" their dogs in prey...

Has anyone had success with this method?

Anything inherently problematic with it that I'm not seeing?

Again, I'm only proposing this style of training for a dog that (1) doesn't have an interest in playing tug with the helper and (2) demonstrates a willingness and confidence to defend itself and its pack.

Thanks

Simon

No one gonna touch this one? I've had a couple of experienced trainers tell me that letting a dog mature and fight with a decoy will often load a dog's prey drive when conventional drive-building wasn't productive. Any suggestions why this works?

remember that the activity of actually biting is a prey action for the dog, and remember also that it appears to be hard for most dogs to maintain a good balance between prey and defense. it might just be that your dog is being put in a position such that he chooses to react with a bite (even if it is chewy and he only stays in "prey" for a very very short amount of time. but if he experiences success while in prey like a reward of some sort (as minute or great as it might be) then he is being rewarded for being in prey. ultimately you hope that the dog becomes more comfortable in prey and suddenly finds himself having to overcome less stimulus threshold to "make prey". this would in effect leak into OB and even tracking as well. remember a dog only knows what we train him, if we teach a primarily defensive dog that prey is ok (using conditioning) then hopefully the dog makes "prey" more often. nobody would truely be able to tell you what is going on without seeing your dog. i think its a confidence in prey issue as well as a conditioned response that the dog cant help, but it sounds like its working out good for you...just my thoughts

Thanks for the reply. I'm just a little unsure when you say that "the activity of actually biting is a prey action for the dog." Usually (at least from what I see at a lot of club level sport-based training) defense in a dog is rewarded by prey "flushing" by the decoy, or at least that's what we're trying to put in the dog's head at times, but I don't think the dog always plays along. There are definitely points where the dog engages with a bite and prey drive is nowhere to be seen. I'm definitely doing what you suggest though, and trying to reward prey drive whenever possible. More experienced helpers would definitely make a difference.

I guess I'm hoping that as he becomes more comfortable in prey his bite-quality will improve, that's definitely his biggest weakness (at least there's no problem with the out <img src="http://www.leerburg.com/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />.

Anything specifically that I should keep in mind to train a B&H with a dog that won't bark in prey at a still decoy? I know Ed has a video for training B&H for PSD's, but I assume that's meant for dogs with a foundation of prey based B&H work.

Thanks
Simon

i think you would be wrong to think that when a dog is striking that it is not in prey, ever... now, im not saying that the dogs transitions from defense to prey and stays in prey, however, i am just stating that anytime a dog strikes (anytime!) the strike itself including the action of biting is a prey action. now, with that said immediately after a bite if the grip is released and the dog is back to short choppy barks and lip curling scowls, then the dog is back in defense. but also remember that defense is not aggression. defense is typically a one-step away from flight senario in probably the great majority (90%) of dogs. btw, if you are unsure of that you might consider some more research on drives and motivation. i think that you will not find one educated person in the dogsport that truely believes that a dogs grip is defense drive only. i would say that some dogs have such a high stimulus threshold for prey drive (read as low prey drive) that they may not be able to bite well at all even with perfect training, simply because the dog will not stay in "prey" long enough to sustain any form of actual grip at all. in other words the dog is
defense...defense....defense...defense...then extremely short amount of prey during the strike and bite attempt...then back to defense....defense...defense....it are these transitions that ultimately would be longer or shorter in any dog depending on their thresholds. reference helmut raiser's book "Der Schutzhund" if you want confirmation of this, as well as some great articles by armin winkler on "www.schutzhundvillage.com" raiser's new video "Aristo" also explains the exact drive transititions the dog must make in order to title in protection for a SCHH I. PM me if you would like more more information on this. either way, if your dog is getting better, i wouldnt contribute it to its success in defense as much as i would contribute it to its comfortability in prey (the bite) and transitioning between drives. but again the key is that he is getting better.

This is the point in training my GSD is, sounds alot like your Bouv. Not to the muzzle work, but the other traits you describe, and actions.
With my GSD and some other dogs who dont have tons of prey drive; I just think it is a confidence issue. Though Gustauv has virtually no prey drive sometimes he will bite hard on a decoy ; when he feels comfortable other times not.

I think sometimes we just try and read too much into these drive interactions, and always want to place a name or describe what we are doing, when really all we should ask. " Is the dog doing what I want him to do when I want him to do it ?? "

Good for you that you didnt wash out the dog. I got Gus from the rescue, and training a weak dog like him has taught me alot.

Definitely. The next dog's gonna be a breeze after all the drive and confindence building steps I've taken with this one.

brad you are right in the sense of "hey what works and what doesnt" but the question was, if i understand it correctly "defense loading prey drive?". it really depends on what the goals with the dog are as well. if its high level sport, i would analyze what drive the dog is in at all times, so that you can maximize training opportunities, minimize bad habits, etc. if it is less than that ie not top sport), then i think that you have to make a conscious effort to be fair to the dog. In other words if you dont know what drive the dog is in, or what his motivations are at anytime during training, then how can you expect him to know what he needs to be doing to achieve success. the more clear you are about whats happening, then the more correct you can be when training diverges, or a reward opportunity exists.

The goal isn't high level sport, but I still need to maximize training by reading the dog at all times.

Ultimately I guess what I was asking was: Has anyone else attributed a lowering of prey drive threshold to the dog successfully fighting with the decoy? I appreciate Travis' response that it was minor successes in prey that brought on the change, I just don't know if I saw enough rewarding of prey behaviour to justify his lower prey threshold.

And I'm not sure I'm on the same page regarding biting only being a prey behaviour, or atleast one predominantly inspired by prey. Definitely with most dogs this is the case(and why shouldn't it be, that foundation of prey work usually means great quality bites), but I think a dog with a high avoidance threshold and fairly confident in his work can still bite with an almost total absense of prey.

Simon

After reading my last post, I just want to clarify something. It kinda sounds like I'm trying to endorse an overly-defensive training style, and that's certainly not the case. I'm talking about the exception to the rule, a dog that ofen responds defensively to a training style meant to elicit a prey response; and ways to have the dog lower his prey threshold so that I can incorporate more prey and confindence building excercises into his training.

Simon