Hi everyone! I’m new to this website in general, but it’s already given me insight I wish I’d had years ago. I’ve just spent about 30 hours reading the entire website and message board and, while I’ve found great advice, my situation has several variables that aren’t taken into account in other posts here. I’m posting my scenario in hopes that I can get some help from you knowledgeable and compassionate dog people. I’ll make it as short as I can, but I can’t promise anything. I thank you in advance for reading and any words you share.

My husband and I have four female dogs. They are all approx. 3 years old. Three of them are littermates. The littermates are not spade, all have had puppies. The fourth dog has never had pups and is spade. The littermates are lab mixes. The fourth is a blue heeler mix from the pound. Littermates are PB 35 lbs, Squeeks 45 lbs, and Rebbie 85 lbs. Blue heeler is Tia 50 lbs. The littermates were raised together by my husband and his ex-wife initially, but then divorced, and his mom took over raising the dogs. The blue heeler was in the pound until 1.5 yrs old and lived with my family for 2years, then moved with me to an apartment when my husband and I married.

Tia came housebroken and sweet, no dominance or aggression. She was with me constantly, I basically treated her like my best friend instead of a dog, never establishing leadership to speak of (HORRIBLE thing to do, I realize now). When we moved to the apartment, I got a fulltime job and she started acting out. Getting in the trash, tearing stuff up, pooping/peeing inside, stopped listening to me entirely unless she felt like it. She only did this when my husband Scott and I were both gone or asleep. We moved into a house and built a kennel in the backyard where she became and outside dog. She started digging under the fence, but eventually just pushed through the chicken wire and escaped -- twice. We had to keep her in the garage.

The littermates were basically allowed to roam free in the house. Slept on the bed, messed inside, snuck dishes from the sink, etc. They went outside maybe twice daily due to work schedule constrictions. Until a year ago, the mom lived there with them, but she had to be put down b/c of cancer. My mother-in-law decided to move and couldn’t keep the dogs, so we had to take the three littermates all at the same time. We made a doggie door in the garage for outside access and they have blankets for bedding.

The dogs get along fine for the most part, but the littermates have always had bouts of fighting and it’s starting to affect Tia. PB, the smallest dog is ALWAYS the aggressor, but she is ALWAYS the one who gets hurt the most. If any dog shows a sign of weakness -- whimpering, cowering, etc -- she growls for a second or two and then jumps on the other dog. There are two ways we know of to stop the fight: pick up PB until the other dog stops defending itself or spray them down with a high pressure water hose, which is faster and safer. These dogs will NOT attack anyone in the family, but they’ll bite if you put your hand where the mouths are, so we pull from behind. There have been three fights in the last two weeks -- twice I have been home alone to deal with it. These were the first dog fights I’ve ever seen, though I knew about it.

Tia is territorial, it seems. She has to get a nibble out of everyone’s food dish (I’ve curbed that), she’ll snap if another dog comes near her when she’s eating or sleeping, she guards the blanket she’s laying on, etc. Tia has never been involved in a fight before yesterday.

I put two dog dishes down and was reaching for the other two. Squeeks escaped the garage, I ran out after her (we did get her back). Two steps out of the garage and I heard the fight start. I came back in and grabbed the water hose. PB was on top of Tia, mouth around the back of Tia’s neck. Rebbie was beside them about to jump in, but had not joined yet. I sprayed them down and they stopped and ran outside. I think Tia sniffed too close to PB’s food and PB reacted.

Scott has researched this for years and can’t find a solution. Shock collars break PB out of fear, but it totally changes her into a whipped puppy instead of a happy dog. We’re afraid that our ignorance of raising dogs will have to result in putting her down, and we hate that option. Is there ANYTHING we can do to avoid that end? We can’t separate them -- we don’t have the money or room. We don’t have the time or ability to try and retrain them, plus it’s near impossible to train them all with four dogs and no separations between them. We thought about bark collars on all dogs b/c just the feel snaps PB into that submissive “I’m wearing a shock collar” state, but word on the board here says it may do more damage than good. Plus, they can’t wear them all the time or there will be sores on their necks. No person in their right mind would take PB, and it wouldn’t be responsible of us to give her away anyway with all her issues, but she’s the aggressor 100% of the time. We’re running out of options.

The kicker is that PB is Scott’s favorite dog -- it’s the one he picked out of the litter (got suckered into the other two by ex-wife) and the one he bonded with the most. Tia, the little hellion, is my baby and I’d hate to see her go. But now that they’ve fought, Tia’s not safe anymore and I fear she’ll start to be more aggressive.

So there’s the long-winded-but-shortened-as-much-as-possible scenario. Please….can anyone think of another option besides killing a dog because of our mistakes??

Thanks for your time.
Netanya

Hi Netanya,

QUOTE -
{We can’t separate them -- we don’t have the money or room. We don’t have the time or ability to try and retrain them, plus it’s near impossible to train them all with four dogs and no separations between them.}

Sounds like you have your hand full, if you can't afford to get crates or put up any other kennels right now, couldn't you confine each to a different room? Bedroom, garage, backyard & current kennel gives you four different locations to use. IMO the first thing you must do is stop the fighting before one of them gets seriously hurt.

Good Luck,
Peggy

I'm with Peggy 100%.

All I would add is that it's imperative to separate them.


At least one dog is being terrorized -- probably more. The one who aggresses and then is always hurt, and the ones showing weakness and being attacked ...... these dogs are not being protected by their pack leader.

I know you came here because you would get straightforward answers in the dogs' interest rather than the handler's, and there it is. These dogs must be separated.

I would start with the meal tonight. Let them eat in peace. Feed one at a time in the garage or kitchen. If they are anything like my own dogs, this will take mere seconds.

You can work this out.

Then maybe you can arrange your walk schedule, maybe alternating between the two humans who takes which dog, so that every dog has a walking (and training and pack structure reinforcement) time every single day, preferably before you leave in the morning.

You have maybe 10+ years to look forward to with these dogs. You could start today to give them all secure lives, lives with training and exercise.

You can start today with that and then think about who will take over the training of which dogs.

Editing to say P.S.: One of my crates was a $10 yard-sale deal.

Crates, crates, crates... I have two female dogs and they are always crated or separated by gates. It's HARD and sometimes a PITA, but I find it's worth it. I am a single mom in the military so I am hard pressed for free time and tons of money... Connie is right, you can do this, it will take planning and won't always go smoothly perfect for you... Just keep trying.

 Quote: Cat Jolley

Crates, crates, crates... I have two female dogs and they are always crated or separated by gates. It's HARD and sometimes a PITA, but I find it's worth it. ....

In the past, I have had three in crates with two walks every day for each (morning and evening), plus training times (a few minutes each time) every evening. It goes more smoothly all the time, once you start.... just a matter of routine and scheduling the exercise. I did this without a second human, so it can definitely be done. It just SOUNDS daunting.

I might add that you could talk to your local animal shelter and ask if they have any crates they could donate to you. Our local shelter gets used crates all the time and they don't use them because they have kennels.

I'm sure if they thought giving you crates would keep a dog out of the shelter they'd help.

Also, consider putting up a notice on the bulletin boards around town (and at vet offices) asking for free or cheap crates.

I hate to be blunt, but without crates, you're screwed. You can keep them in seperate rooms, but all it takes is one person accidentally opening the door not realizing the dog's in there. Most people don't accidentally open a crate!

Again with the bluntness....but if you don't have the time or money to crate or train these dogs then why do you have four of them? Isn't there any way you can rehome two of them at least? Even people with tons of time and money would have their hands full with the dogs you have.

I really wish you the best of luck. Keep us posted.

Oh Connie, I have two other humans that try and help me... my sons, ages 5 and 2. Needless to say... it's easier with the dogs and no human interaction than with it. You're right, now that I have a schedule, it's a whole lot easier for me. Still sucks getting up at 0520 every morning.

Netanya, I honestly don't know how to "sugar-coat" this, but if you refuse to separate & train all these same-sex dogs, you will end up spending MOST of your limited money & free time at the Vet's office -- If you really can't afford to care for them properly, then it's MUCH more humane to re-home 3 of your pets before they start sustaining very serious injuries on your watch <:-(

I'm not trying to be mean, but am just attempting to save these poor dogs a lot of needless suffering -- Hope you understand...

Have your dogs spayed. Stop adding to the overpopulation problem. There is no excuse to have intact mixed breed dogs.

You need crates. Each dog needs its own crate. You can get used ones for 10 or 20 bucks. Do not make excuses, because your dogs lives are on the line here. If you do not have the money to keep these dogs properly and keep them safe, you should not have them at all.

I know I sound mean and blunt, but you just said you spent 30 hours going through the material on this site. Ed is crystal clear on this: You have a dog pack. Dogs that fight need to be separated and you definitely should not be feeding them together, by doing this you are asking for trouble.

If you cannot manage your pack by keeping the dogs separated, they need new homes.

Thank you ALL for reading my rediculously long post. Some of you asked questions, so I'll answer them all here.

First of all, I live in a really small town with no pound that I know of, but I will check the surrounding areas for extra crates. That's a VERY good idea, so thank you.

Putting them in different rooms would be ok except that they will destroy the house that way. If they don't knock stuff over, they'll claw through the doors (which has happened before) and mess on the carpet.

I will try feeding them separately tonight. Maybe we can corral them all outside except one, husband block the door, then rotate it for all three... Again, good idea.

As far as walking them... PB and Squeeks can get out of a collar or harness in a matter of seconds. Rebbie has broken five collars that I know of, all either leather or nylon. Tia is the only one I trust to walk with. Any suggestions for this?? I'd LOVE to take them out, but I just can not trust them not to escape. Plus, there are a few loose dogs and I don't know what would happen if they saw each other even if I have a big stick.

Regarding rehoming them ... PB doesn't like hardly anyone, jumps 6ft high, not housebroken, and aggressive. Squeeks is not housebroken, escape artist, also jumps 6ft high. Rebbie is partially housebroken, but not reliable, chews EVERYTHING to bits. Tia messes if not watched, slightly territorial. We MIGHT be able to get rid of Tia and Rebbie, but PB and Squeeks would still be together and that's where 98% of the fights come from -- no one would ever take them if they knew the truth, and I wouldn't dare withold it from someone interested.

None of these dogs had puppies on my watch, nor will they. We intend to get them spayed, but can't right now, which is why they are constantly locked in.

I realize that we shouldn't have these dogs if we can't be what they need from us, which is why I'm here looking for an alternative. At the very least give me credit for trying to rectify my mistakes. You don't sound mean, Angela. You just don't seem to give me any credit at all -- I know we have a pack, they need to be separated, and if we can't do it we shouldn't have them. That's why I came here, ya know? But I certainly appreciate bluntness -- I need that from people and I realize you're only so forceful because no dog deserves an owner who can't be the leader, too.

I will take every suggestion here and pursue it, and HOPEFULLY, with enough time, it'll start to make a difference. I really, really don't want to keep failing them.

Thanks for helping me here.... If anyone has more advice, please post it. I swear I'll read it and do my best to use it.

Thanks.
Netanya