I have a 2 year old Mal that has started drug school. We are in weeek two. Finding the stuff is no problem. On the scratch box he does a nice two paw scratch. When we move to other things he sometimes sits and barks. This will not work in a car. As the training day progresess he seems to do more barking and less scratching. I need help building his scratch. Thanks in advance!

David,

Hopefully you aren't paying him for a bark. If so then you are creating a bigger problem than what you already have.

I'm sure if you do a search you'll find plenty of info. For starters you can try having another person hold your dog while he watches you bury his toy in the sand about 6-10 inches deep. Let the dog go and watch him dig. He digs hard and fast and out pops the toy.

Try putting his toy in a cardboard box and duct tape it up good. Let him get a whiff of the toy inside and hold onto that box for dear life till he digs it out.

For aggressive alert dogs I do my very best from the beginning to NOT let the dog see me reward him. The reward comes over his head, to his scratching paws so he believes he has dug it out of whatever he is scratching. Aggressive alert dogs that bark or look back at the handler have figured out where the reward is coming from because the handler keeps getting busted while paying the dog.

Howard

I like those ideas!!!!!! But sometmes I think I have been paying him for is bark. Only because he sometimes barks and then starts to scratch however small the scratch might be. My trainer wants to put a pinch on him today and give him a couple of pops when he starts barking. I just don't want him to think he is being corrected for finding the drugs. His nose is really working. Over the weekend I think I will try some of those ideas. On the cardboard box----what if he uses his theeth as well as his paws to get it open??
Thanks!

Correcting the dog for this is a huge mistake. This is a drive exercise. If you start correcting the drive leaves. Your trainer needs to go back to school himself.


Your job is to put more drive in - take a couple of your scratch boxes and screw a board to the top that overhangs the edge of the box by about 6 inches. This allows you to use your foot and step on the board to quickly let box pop up.

Then take a fish line and attach it to the drug toy. When the dog scratches - step on the board and JERK the TOY OUT WITH THE FISH LINE. Turn your toy into a rabbit.

On this subject (kind of) I'd be interested to hear opinions on an agressive versus a passive indication. When do you teach one and not the other? is it the type of scent work that the dog is learning or the temperament of the dog to begin with etc. (Other than obvious things such as explosives detection.) Has anyone changed a dog from one type to the other. Or taught a dog a passive indicator for one job and an aggressive for another?
~Angela

Taught properly, the only difference between a passive and aggressive response it the obvious. I prefer the aggressive reponse on drug dogs, only because I'm old, in charge and like the way it looks. There are times when the particular mission of the dog requires a passive response. I also prefer a passive response of dual purpose (drug/patrol) because I teach an aggressive response for building search etc in patrol work. The passive response for explosives is, of course, a no brainer. Changing a response is generally not all that difficult of task. I don't normally do it just for grins. If the mission dictated, it can be done. The biggest complaint, in my experience, about the aggressive response is the concern of damaged vehicles. Over the past 30 plus thousand of vehicles sniffs we've conducted over the past 10 years or so, we've paid three claims. To me it is just the cost of doing business.

In the case of patrol dogs as I mentioned, they responds passively on drugs, aggressively to concealed persons. Theoretically, it's possibe to train a dog to passively respond to one odor, and aggressively to another. To me, it's just not worth the effort or the possible problems that could result.

DFrost

Thank you for your excellent input David, those are exactly the kind of things I'm interested in hearing. I guess, you hit the nail on the head regarding damage to property; as I wonder if there is a trend toward a passive search to avoid just such issues since we seem to be a sue happy nation at times. Good to hear that the numbers are reasonable.
~Angela

greetings, im new in this forum and igot to tell you thos are great forums and ilearnd alot from you all...

ihave abit difrent aproach on the subject and iwhould like to hear your opinion please:
ithink agresive indication execpt the operational facts that david menchoned which icomplitlly agree) pot no burreiers between the dog and the prey that fact couse more basic and primery impact and sadesfaction of the prey drive than passive response which create higher prey drive work at some dogs with its advantages and disadvantage very good on dogs that work far from handler and the dog can take alot of presure from the enviorment during the search.
ialso separate active indication and passive indication passive means that the dog smell the material and sit and from that time one he dont use hes nose- much safe when you deal with armed explossives devices - idont abig funn of thes indication but iuse it mostly for leash work when the handler is near the dog and there is reasnoble couse for "live charges" (ajob that iprefer not do usally)
the active not agresive on the other hand means that dog is using hes nose all the time even when he sits and pointing on the material with hes nose. tauching it or not regurding to the job that is my favorite indication couse it reflect alot of the search the dog will do and the prresure he might take during the search. ilove using that method when sending the dog away with no leash on open area or build area espessciely when the dog need to work far from handler and without seeing him.
the best indication to defind between the two is in the recall - the active indecetion well usselly can maintain soilid recall after much more time they where markening while the passive dogs will have to search all over again after sevral of time.
thats my openion more or less...
iwhould love to hear you al openion couse its abig debit here in israel.

sefi.s

 Quote: Angela Fleming

Has anyone changed a dog from one type to the other. Or taught a dog a passive indicator for one job and an aggressive for another?
~Angela

ionce hade to change awhole team that igot inchaeged of from agresive mark to passive mark and it was very hard job to do...
generally ijust hade to back to imprint and start from allmost zero couse ididnt wanted to do it by corecting the dogs but by holding the prize ihad no choice (it coused by amastake of another and could pot in danger lots of lifes icant say more) but with all of the dogs it worked up in the end after lots of work
intresting one of the midelle fazes was that on free the dogs where marking passive and with leash agresive (the opisint than you may uselly thouth.)
idid the opissent aswell more than once and it is much easier...

Thanks Ed!

I felt the same way and i am new to this stuff. Lucky today he had the pinch on, but I did not have to pop him. Just with it on he seemed more level keyed. Drive has not been an issue, but I don't know if it will stay there. Being a brand new handler I don't want to march into class and tell the trainer how to do it, but I will be going to Home Depot to buy some wood for the scratch boxes for home. I love the rabbit idea!!!!!!! Ed do you let the towel come flying out and let him pounce on it?? Then play tug and have a grand old time?? Today he would get rewarded for even one scratch as long as he did not bark. Whole day and no barks. I also want to try the sand hole and let him dig it out. I was thinking of digging a hole and using a section of wood that I good tape the dope to and stand on over the hole and just leave a crack so the dog could sniff and have a place to start digging. I love this site! Thanks for all of the input!