hi all.

i have been with my puppy 8months now, pure breed border collie. She is awesome. I am doing marker training now, in the front yard, in the house when ever i can. in the front yard it is definately with food treats and stuff, but in the house when she is just being good it is all praise and cuddles.

my question is this. i have already done some obedience with maiya at puppy pre school we did the sit drop stand lessons with food rewards.

AFter viewing hte marker session on the training basics dvd i have now learned a lot more. The question i have though is, are you ready to move on from marker training to the sit stay drop stand etc, when every time you say yes, the dog looks at you for a reward? at the moment, i am having a little trouble, when i say yes maiya instantly puts her bum on the ground, and i don't want her to think that the yes is for an action which incorporates her putting her bum down for the reward. Today, when we were walking i was marking eye contact. she would stop, sit then look at me, i am trying to get her out of this. i have been putting her into a stand then just as she is about to sit again i lift her bum up, she looks at me i mark 'yes' then treat her. it seems to be working, but i just wanted to know what am i looking for in her responses to move on.

cheers
bret

I don't know about the DVD. I start marker training before I start anything else (although after I teach the dog its name). I just say "Yes," then throw a treat. To the point where the dog thinks "Yes!" means treat. Later on just by incorporating it it starts to mean "You're doing well" and becomes a reward in itself, but it takes time for that.

Bret,

If you say "yes" and your dog gets whip lash from turning its head toward you in anticipation of reward then you have established your marker. A marker is not neccessary for training but man oh man does it make things a whole lot easier!! All the marker does is bridge the verbal gap between human and dog. By establishing a marker in your training you essentially have established a method of verbal communication between you and your dog. And that word translates to the dog, "tah dah you have made the correct choice" and now a reward is forthecoming. I'm sure you've heard time and time again that dogs understand tone and don't understand (human) language. Well that being said if the marker ("yes", a clicker, etc) has been classically conditioned then the dog WILL understand that the sound of the marker has value to him.

See by training sit, for example, you are attempting to give the word "sit" meaning but it still has no value for the dog. However, if you pair that correct action with a cue and follow it up with reward then the action will begin to take on some value for the dog too. What your marker does is takes a snap shot of the EXACT action that got the dog its reward - the marker 'marks' a moment in time. Dogs work for motivation only. That motivation could be anticipation of reward or avoidance to correction. The best way I can describe this concept to the clients I teach is as follows: the dog is not working for food, or praise, or to avoid a correction. What a new trainer wants to be doing is training the dog to work in anticipation of the marker, because, "yes" = reward. Everything the dog does, he does because he is trying to make you say that one word that will get him the thing which he wants.

To condition the marker itself do not say "yes" and follow up with praise, there must always be a high value reward until the marker is properly established. Reward is anything the dog wants. If the dog doesn't want what you have to offer then it's not rewarding for him. If you are using a word for your marker (yes) then be careful of what you say, in daily activities, until the marker is finished. If you are on the phone and someone asks you is it snowing today? and you reply "yes"... if the dog hears that you owe that dog a treat! If the marker is already finished then the dog will be coming to you to get it!

Sounds like she has associated Yes as the sit command. To load the marker "yes" she should be doing random things while you inconsistently say "yes" then feed her a treat, this way she associates the marker with food. She will turn, look for food when the marker is loaded. Now you can train using the marker. Be very specific in your criteria and don't mark & treat or praise what you don't want. Physical help like lifting her butt doesn't help because markers and learning depend on the dog offering behavior and figuring out what works. She will begin to associate the lifting as a part of the cue and behavior if you continue to do this.
When using the marker I never use Yes without a treat NEVER... I don't downgrade to praise or lower motivation because this is not what the marker is for. If your dog has learned the command, or the part you were training, then stop using the marker. Treats and praise after this are for the good job, not the moment the marker "marked". Fading the marker is instantaneous. Fading treats and praise is not.

Kristine Velasco said:

" I don't know about the DVD. I start marker training before I start anything else (although after I teach the dog its name). I just say "Yes," then throw a treat. To the point where the dog thinks "Yes!" means treat. Later on just by incorporating it it starts to mean "You're doing well" and becomes a reward in itself, but it takes time for that. "

I disagree with how you use the marker. This is a common mistake in how markers are used.
The "yes" is never a reward itself- it means a reward is coming for the moment/behavior you said it. It is a marker not praise. To maintain the value of the marker in your training you should ALWAYS reward a treat of high motivation when it is used and quickly stop using it when the dog has learned the command (doing it 8 out of 10 times) Then raise your criteria and use it again to shape and train the behavior or if the desired behavior is reached, use verbal praise and treats on a variable schedule of reinforcement.

To fix the sitting problem while saying yes, keep your dog moving and do not allow her to sit. Add some mild distractions like playing easy fetch or catch her off guard and then cue the eye contact. Make sure your timing is perfect- marking the exact second she looks into your eyes, not a moment before or after. If you are late, don't mark, just praise verbally with a "good dog" and try again. If she's looking 8 times out of 10 then it's time to raise your criteria of the behavior (what is expected to earn a treat) and mark until she achieves it or go to a variable schedule of reinforcement to keep the behavior strong.
Hope this helps.

hi, yeah that is awesome it does help.

she has gotten into the habit of, (we use the front yard, no distractions there)we walk around i watch her. when i stand still she will sit, then look at my hand, or look around and then look into my eyes, i will mark the eye contact for example. given that i don't want her to sit and wait, i just want her to recognize the 'marker' i mark when we are walking, she follows me around everywhere which is good in a way. i will lay some dry old treats on the ground and walk away from her, i will call her name, if she turns her head i will mark it, if she finishes the treats and walks to me i mark that. in order for me to get her out of the habbit of sitting waiting for the treat/marker, i have to be more spontaneous on my markers, and mark more random things, correct? such as walking and calling her name she looks at me while walking, i mark that. should i be faster, i maybe have some food in both hands, and try to give her the reward before she motions to sit down. i mark it before she does, would that be a good way to go as well?

bret

Sounds like she definitely knows that the marker equals a treat so you don't have to practice loading it anymore (Usually this entire loading process is only 5-10 minutes 1 time in the dogs life.) Consider that marker now a powerful training tool and start teaching some new behaviors.

I'm a bit confused on what you are trying to train her to do in the last post. Are you working on eye contact, or heeling, or coming to you, or name recognition?
Try to work on one behavior at a time during a given session.(remember, she knows that marker meaning now so you'll never need to practice that again.)
For example, pick eye contact as a behavior to train.
1. Set your criteria (or what you expect and will mark and treat for.):
It is important to do this to make training productive for you as a handler and the dog. It helps you keep track of her progress and your timing ability. For example with eye contact: Your criteria may be to mark everytime she looks at you after you call her name. This is too general though. A better criteria would be to mark every look she gives you within 10 seconds after you call her name once. Be specific and change your criteria if you find it too hard or too easy for her when you start training.
If you start with expectations too high and don't receive alot of effort from your dog then you can lower your criteria until your dog starts to offer some form of the behavior you want to shape eventually into the end behavior. Or if your dog picks it up very quickly, then you can progress quicker through the steps of the behavior to reach the end goal faster. The more behaviors your dog offers the easier it is to pick out the one you want and mark it, so raise your criteria in small enough increments that your dog always has a realistic chance of reinforcement. If your dog stops offering behavior or seems to become confused, lower your criteria and practice other ways to elicit a response.

2. Shape the behavior by luring to get behavior then, Mark the desired behaviors:
For eye contact, in order to capture the most responses, it is best to start with her leashed in a slightly distracting area, since you want her to look away from you to start. Call her name once. Don’t pull on the leash or use any other method to get her attention. This would be “luring”, but your dog, and most dogs, don’t need it for the eye contact behavior. The instant she looks at you in the eyes, mark and treat either by tossing the treat or giving it to her in your hand. Let her get distracted again and sniff around and after a bit of time when she isn’t looking at you, call her name. She looks, you mark and treat. What if she won’t look away from you and now follows you everywhere trying to get another treat. Add more distractions. Let her on a long line or loose in your yard or somewhere she will look somewhere else. Call her name, she looks, you mark and treat.

3. When you have reached the desired behavior and the dog is offering it 80% of the time, stop using the marker and begin using only praise words paired with treats/toy rewards.( By the way, the formal cue for the behavior should be added in the 80% period using the marker.) With eye contact, the cue is her name, so it’s an easy one to teach, plus the shaping is minimal. When she is looking 80% of the time in response to her name called once, drop the marker and start praising & treats.

4. As long as the behavior maintains an 80% response rate you can begin using a variable schedule of reinforcement. This means that you only reward the correct behaviors on a variable ratio of responses. For example, If you ask your dog to sit 10 times, only reward with a treat on the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th, & 9th responses. The others just smile and praise verbally. This create a slot-machine effect and causes better obedience if you do it correctly. You can read a lot about it on the internet- though I don’t agree with all the “clicker training” rules the basis of operant conditioning it works on is correct. They take the no punishment thing to extremes and this can be misleading and inefficient in training- good info on their site about how to apply techniques though: http://www.clickertraining.com/node/670
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/333 about adding the cue- read it to understand why and listen to leerburg’s podcast about marker training…

3. Learning is really fast when using markers compared to training without them, so moving on past the point of using the marker is important or the dog will become frustrated, "I've already learned that, why the reruns?!" In the beginning, dogs are slower to offer behavior but soon they find out that they have to offer many behaviors to get a treat so they will start paying more attention to your timing and so it's important to have good marker timing and to challenge your dog with inconsistencies in everything except the behavior you want. Vary your body position and practice in new places (not “environments” until after the behavior is taught, but when teaching move the dog to a different “place” in your room or house or yard like 10 feet away facing another direction. This helps the dog identify your criteria and not association meaningless things, like “place”, with it. Dogs are black and white and do not assume! The amount of time you spend on a behavior depends on how well you time the marker, how well you define and set criteria for the dog, how well your dog learns.

 Quote: bret kennedy

in order for me to get her out of the habbit of sitting waiting for the treat/marker, i have to be more spontaneous on my markers, and mark more random things, correct? such as walking and calling her name she looks at me while walking, i mark that. should i be faster, i maybe have some food in both hands, and try to give her the reward before she motions to sit down. i mark it before she does, would that be a good way to go as well?
bret

She will stop doing this when you start using the markers correctly. It should disappear when she starts learning a new behavior. I used the eye contact behavior as an example above but it sounds to me like she is about near the 80% reliability period. You should be able to drop the marker soon and just go on praise and/or treats. Here's a quick rundown of what teaching sit with markers would look like:
criteria: to shape the sit behavior by luring with a treat into sit position, then fading to verbal cue "Sit".
1. Using NO verbal "sit" cues, lure a sit position using a treat.
2. Mark and treat the sit position.
3. When dog offers sit position voluntarily (without you luring the dog into the sit position), mark and treat. Start saying verbal cue "Sit" immediately after the lure. Fade lure.
4. Upon 80% verbal cue reliability, drop marker.
5. Maintain behavior with a slowly introduced variable schedule of reinforcement.

These are just tips on how to benefit and use marker training…just the bare basics. PM me on more specifics or Q&A you have.
Hope this is not too confusing -once you understand it it’s easy, but explaining it is hard.
Alison Voore

Hi Bret,

my pup used to do the same thing (would sit every time I got a treat out to reward him).

Just be a lot quicker and try tossing the treat to her after you say yes (as opposed to handing it to her, which would give her time to put her butt down).

At first she may have to pick the treat off the ground after you throw it to her, but soon she should learn to catch it.

I'm currently teaching my 9-month-old pup to heel and the whole catching the treat is really paying off. I now hold the food treat between my teeth and randomly drop it as we heel. That way, constant eye contact by my pup and he doesn't have time to sit or get distracted as you try to feed him by hand.

Hope this works for you! It did for me!
(Try the "Competition Heeling with Tom Rose" DVD - I love it and it's great to teach your pup to heel with eye contact later on in your training!)

Oh one more thing; you said that you're working with the basic obedience dvd right?

One great way to get your pup used to having treats tossed at her (instead of taking them from your hand) is to do what Ed shows with CJ. He puts CJ in a down-stay and tosses treats at him, between the dog's front legs.

I found that with my pup, he very quickly learned to catch the treats in the down position. He doesn't wait for the treat to fall between his legs, he just snaps at it as I toss it to him!
Being very quick with tossing the treat is the key - dog doesn't have time to get distracted and start sitting or whatever.

Good luck!

Hi Allison.

I have a little problem with the 80% reliability you talk about. If my dog would sit 8 out of 10 times I told him to, I wouldn't be too happy about it. I would think he's being stubborn. I don't have much experience training dogs, but I would think that a properly taught 'sit' command should be performed 10 out of 10 times by a dog, unless there are many distractions or something like that.

Oh, and one more thing. You said:

 Quote:

As long as the behavior maintains an 80% response rate you can begin using a variable schedule of reinforcement. This means that you only reward the correct behaviors on a variable ratio of responses. For example, If you ask your dog to sit 10 times, only reward with a treat on the 2nd, 4th, 5th, 8th, & 9th responses.

Do you still mark even though you don't treat?

Richard,

A dog will never do obedience 100%. No dog.
In some instances, you may get close to a 100% obedience rate on a behavior that is very well known and proofed. But the 80% rule is mainly a guide to when to drop the marker and begin using a VSR. A goal of 80% is a good indicator that your dog fully understands the behavior and is ready for improvement and refinement with a variable ratio schedule(VSR) or in order to maintain obedience. It is then when you would stop using the marker to identify the correct behavior and just use praise/rewards/treats.

Markers are only used to teach a NEW behavior, not as maintenance
praise/rewards. So, No, you would not use markers during a VSR because you are no longer teaching and also skipping rewards on a few good behaviors for that slot- machine effect where the dog improves his performance in order to see if he is going to get a treat or not. You are also never to mark without giving a reward, since this defeats the purpose of the marker. Use of a marker=follow with a reward.

A "stubborn" dog may just, in fact, be an untrained dog.

Alison Voore