I just finished watching The First Steps of Defense (literally ) and the video mentioned that the training can go back to grip development once the civil work is "done" (dog working with intensity). Does this developmental stage differ from the initial grip development stage done with the dog in prey drive, in regards to techniques used with the equipment? Are we esentially re-doing the original grip training but, expecting to see the intensity, that the dog has learned from the civil defense work, now brought into the rest of the dog's bite training?

One thing I know is that dogs that work more on the defense side don't grab the sleeve with a full mouth bite, and the prey dogs have a full mouth bite.Now ,example, my PPd dog when we would do his bite work when I first got him, he did n't have much experience on the man, he had fence work some bites but nothing solid.He would bite kind of crazy , he wouldn't target the sleeve and let go of the sleeve and bite(not full mouth) at everything else on the man.He was kind of dirty, I guess civil.So we decided to work him more on the prey side to get him to bite better , focus more and bite with a full mouth, allowing him to re-grip (fix his bite) rebite properly so that he gets a good grip.Hope I make sense to you Bradley, I'm trying here.Anyways , now that we have done this work for a while his bite has gotten so much better, he is still civil, he is not locked by any mean in prey, he is still man focused.But his first foundation work was in defence not in prey.Some dogs if you work them in prey from day one they get locked in prey drive during bite work (and everything) and then it can be hard to get them to work on defence.My other male (young male) is SOO prey driven that I am backing off on his bite work for now, I want him to be more balanced and be more man focused.His bite is great, full mouth solid grip pulls hard ect... but it's all in prey.Great for the sport but not for PPD. I want a little of both in my dog.Too much sacking at an early age I think..

Thanks, Angelique.

I realize that dogs will bite a little more poorly when starting work in defense because they are being pushed to the brink of avoidance, but that it is the action of and the decision made to bite that will result in a release of stress for the dog. I understand that the grip will not be up to par as it was in prey and that once the dog is showing the neccessary intensity in defense work that further bite development, in this drive, can then be conducted. What I'm wondering about are the training steps involved for this developmental stage. Is the "defenseive grip development" the same as or similar to grip development done in prey work except done in the defensive drive?

And (this is nothing against your comment Angelique, I enjoy and appreciate all the input you give me on here) but it is my understanding that prey bite development should take place first in all cases so that the dog has a means of relieving the stress (by biting - which was taught in prey) when being "worked" (or stressed) in defense. However, "locking a dog" is to be avoided too, and that is done by switching training to defense before the dog gets locked. Is that correct?

All I know is that dogs that are more on the defence side, don't bite as well and don't think as clearly (at first) so we work them more in prey to get a better bite and have them feel more comfortable about biting with a full grip.They focus better and their grip is much better.If you work a dog with defence only you'll never get a good grip and a full mouth bite.Prey work is more comfortable to a dog.You also teach him that in prey can come conflict.That's what we are doing with my young male, he is still very young so I am going to back off (he is locked in prey) and go back to my protection work in about 6 months and bring some conflict to his bite work.Biting has been fun for him he feels very comfortable biting the sleeve and he runs with lots of power to the helper but to him the helper is no threat and the sleeve is all he cares about.So when we do our bite work later the helper will start posing more of a threat to him and teach him that if he doesn't pay attention to the helper he could get hurt.Some dogs are born with lots of prey drive , I believe my young male was born with a lot of it.It showed when he was a puppy.My other male has more of a serious side and was very quick to mature.I believe that he was born with less prey drive and more defense. You can see pups that have a great full grip at a very young age, and the ones that don't. I am not sure what you mean with defensive grip development, I've never heard of that term.The grip is all foundation work and how you have worked your dog (plus what they bring naturally).I believe that working your dog in prey first ,equals to a full grip and clear thinking,and then once you have accomplished that, you bring some conflict .A defensive grip is one I wouldn't want , the bite is with the front teeth and it's not a full bite or a solid grip.Does that make more sense?

I think what Bradley is asking is "how do you develop a calm, full bite under the stress of defense compared to the way you would develop it in prey drive?" (now I don't particularly know the answer... but maybe that clears it up...)

Angelique,
You make is sounds as if prey work is just a crutch to dogs who can't handle the stress defensive work. It is my understanding that prey is the foundation of bite work, where defense should never be added until the dog is excellent in his prey work, grips, and used to the decoy. Do you train your dogs differently? It is also my understanding that with a dog locked in prey has not had defense added when he was ready, but yet waited too long. But a good decoy can bring him into defense drive. I'm no expert in bite work, but I think there are some here who could bring some clarity about this issue.
Alison

The way you understand prey work is pretty much what I was saying, not good at explainning, sorry.I am talking about a dog that someone is doing bite work (seen many) don't bite with a full grip.We always go back to the prey foundation .I'm talking about dogs that haven't had a proper foundation, or are starting with schutzhund late.You can't say that not starting a dog in defense when he was ready ,made him lock in prey, my dog is a year old, no way is he ready now or was earlier for defense work.He is simply locked into prey cause one, he is prey driven (genetically) and two I did too much sacking with him.No way have I had started to work him in defense would that have fixed it, way too young.Some dog can handle a little bit of defence at that age but for the most part it's not a good thing to start defense work on a dog a year or younger.I don't care how good the helper is.A dog should be allowed to mature before that kind of pressure being put on him.You don't see in the wild a one year old pack leader(in wolfs or dingos or any pack animals) yet you would expect a one year old to defend your pack? Not a good thing to expect IMO.

 Quote: alison voore

I think what Bradley is asking is "how do you develop a calm, full bite under the stress of defense compared to the way you would develop it in prey drive?" (now I don't particularly know the answer... but maybe that clears it up...)
Alison

I think I answered it, it's best to work a dog in prey to accomplish a full bite and a nice focus, clear head.
Once you accomplish a comfortable, full grip introduce more defense in your bite work, the bite work IMO has many phases, you want a nice full grip, a clear head, focused,knows it's target, learns to hold his grip ect...SOme dogs bring a lot of energy into their bite and some are more calm, I don't think teaching a calm bite is necessary, once a dog has a full bite of the sleeve, he either pulls hard or not.The bite doesn't move it's all in the power of the dog pulling on it.You want to teach your dog to pull not shake the sleeve.

Here folks:
Think on this. Biting is seldom done using defensive behaviors. Confronting the man and biting skills should progress sepereatly.
If you try to make a dog bite from defensive behaviors you will get wrecked grips.
Don't equate confrontational behaviors with biting. At least not until all the skills are well established then some confrontation can be done while biting to promote appropriate contering behaviors byt he dog.
This avoids the grip problems associated with defensive biting.

I think the answers I have gotten so far have been tailored to a question, that is being percived to be, more detailed than I had intended. So, far the answers I have gotten seem to explain that prey is done first, etc.; I understand this. I realize that the grip/bite should be to a certain level of proficiency in the training so far, etc...

Kevin is close to what I'm asking, though...

 Quote:

some confrontation can be done while biting to promote appropriate contering behaviors byt he dog.

The term "defensive grip development" was only a phrase I used to help get the point of my question across. (Guess it wasn't a good use of terminology..my bad.)

So, after all that.. what I was getting at is, are the countering behaviors, done by the dog, while working in defensive drive, trained by the handler in a similar method as those that had previously been done (already established) in the initial stages of bite development, done in prey drive?

 Quote: angelique cadogan

You can't say that not starting a dog in defense when he was ready, made him lock in prey, my dog is a year old, no way is he ready now or was earlier for defense work. He is simply locked into prey cause one, he is prey driven (genetically) and two I did too much sacking with him.No way have I had started to work him in defense would that have fixed it, way too young.Some dog can handle a little bit of defence at that age but for the most part it's not a good thing to start defense work on a dog a year or younger.I don't care how good the helper is.A dog should be allowed to mature before that kind of pressure being put on him.You don't see in the wild a one year old pack leader(in wolfs or dingos or any pack animals) yet you would expect a one year old to defend your pack? Not a good thing to expect IMO.

So then your dog isn't "locked in prey" if he hasn't had, or isn't ready for defense then. I think you want a 1 year old pup to only be in prey and focus on the rag/sleeve/ "prey" item. Do you mean that he is having trouble focusing on the decoy during sleeve work? How would you describe your 1 year old being "locked in prey" before defense even has begun? I think a dog locked in prey is a dog who only chases/bites the "prey item" and doesn't actually confront a decoy or see it as a stress.

One of ed's articles says it this way: "Now, on the other end of the spectrum, we have these trainers that train their dogs in prey for so long that the dogs become locked in prey. This is also foolish. Dogs that become locked in prey always have sound temperament and good nerves. These dogs are so driven for their prey item that they are willing to tolerate strong doses of pressure or pain just to get their prey. They develop the attitude that "I can take anything you (the helper) can dish out as long as I get to bite my prey item in the end." from: http://www.leerburg.com/def-frst.htm

He then talks about the good reasons, in french ring, that a dog works in prey.
Is is such a bad thing?