Yesterday I saw a video where the trainer used the marker 'yes' to teach obedience to her dog. I have read about Ed's techniques and I know he uses markers for some obedience work.

I did a search on 'markers' here on the forum and read this instructive thread:

Marker thread

Well, I've never used markers to train my dogs, and never had a problem teaching them basic commands. To teach the sit, I have a treat in hand, let him smell it, and when he's standing in front of me I put his but down while saying 'sit' and when his but touches the floor, I repeat sit, give the treat followed by a 'good boy' and a little petting. Last dog I taught how to sit (ACD) learned to do it by himself by the third try.

So, are markers really necessary if my technique is working for me? Seems to me that the dog could get confused with the commands at first, having to associate 'sit' with sitting, then the 'yes' with a treat... when with my way he just has to associate the sit with a treat.

Can 'good boy' be used as a marker or is it a phrase used too often to be used as a marker? Seems like I say good boy whenever my dog does something well, and he associates the word with praise and love.

I agree with using markers when training.

For my dog, I use:

Yes=Release, exercise is over, my dog has to do nothing further in order to receive her reward.

No=Lets her know she's not receiving her reward because she did something wrong.

Good=Lets her know to continue the exercise and that she's on the way to reward.

The reason I like this is because if I tell her sit and she doesn't or if she sits to slow for my liking, I tell her no and she has to fix it. As opposed to telling her to sit again and again. In my opinion that's just teaching her to sit on the 2nd, or 3rd command.

You are actually using a marker, in a sense, when you say "sit" when the dog sits. The only problem I see is that you are requiring your dog to generalize. He has to generalize that he "sit" means to sit down but also that you get a treat from it being the marker, which it will not mean in the future. This will cause confusion.
It will be hard for him to separate the cue from the marker, since they are two different purposes. One asks the dog to sit, one marks the correct moment the appropriate behavior occurred & gives a treat. This is why it is important not to use a cue before the behavior is formed. Teaching a behavior should be done silently with a lure, and then when the dog knows the behavior, you add the cue.
Marker training is a refinement from letting your dog guess from inconsistencies to learn the correct behavior. The marker means treat, but also defines the specific behavior done when the marker was delivered. Everything is consistent- same word, means treat always, can be used with any behavior.
"Good boy" is betters as a praise word, not a marker word. If you were to use "good boy" you'd need to deliver a treat every time you use it- that is what makes the marker strong. "Yes" is a better marker because it's quick, short and clear (like a clicker). Good boy can be used to mark a good behavior, "Yes" would mark a moment of the correct behavior in learning.

To answer your original question," Are they necessary for me to use" - No. they are not. But you will see a great improvement in speed of learning and you will be able to train more effectively and specifically. Training will be less confusing to your dog.
When the dog learns the command you drop the marker and just praise or reward with treat or play.

I also recommend that you use a lure rather than pushing the dog's butt down or physically helping to position him when training. Sometimes a dog can associate this as part of the cue
and it will just add more confusion. The sit is easy to teach but you'll notice this in other behaviors. Use the treat as a lure to move the dog's body into position, then mark the behavior when it happens and give the treat. After a couple lured behaviors, remove the treat and hold it behind you back and see if your dog to offer the behavior himself, then mark, treat. Now you can begin adding the verbal cue.


I hope this is not to wordy and confusing!

Alison Voore

 Quote: richard pryor

So, are markers really necessary if my technique is working for me? Seems to me that the dog could get confused with the commands at first, having to associate 'sit' with sitting, then the 'yes' with a treat... when with my way he just has to associate the sit with a treat.

Not neccasary, but I would reccomend markers.

Using "yes" helps you eliminate treats sooner in training and gives you an excellent verbal communication tool that does not rely on treats or heavy praise. Hearing "yes" becames a reward to the dog. Compare it too playing slot machines, you lose most of the time, but are addicted to playing for the few times you do get a cash payout. Its the same for a dog and a positive marker like "yes". Intermittent rewards like this are used only after the dog has been properly conditioned to "yes" and has gone through the beginning learning phase with alot of treats and praise every time "yes" was used.

 Quote: richard pryor

Can 'good boy' be used as a marker or is it a phrase used too often to be used as a marker? Seems like I say good boy whenever my dog does something well, and he associates the word with praise and love.

You have got the right idea. "good boy" and "praise and love" is great, but, used too often and in too many situations to give the the specific meaning of a properly conditioned marker like "yes". "Yes" is not used except in training. If anything, marker training eliminates confusion in your dog because it draws a clearer picture in the dogs mind of what you want. "Yes" instantly marks the desired behavior and helps associate the "command" or "cue" to the desired behavior quicker. Accelerated learning!

I don't mean to pick, but there are a couple of misleading points in the last post. In order to correctly utilize marker training, you have to know what not to do also. There are alot of misunderstandings about marker training because it seems difficult, but the more you understand, the better you will be able to use it. Like Ed says- dog training isn't rocket science- this include the part about marker training. It's really easy once you understand it.

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Hearing "yes" becames a reward to the dog.

This is the incorrect way to use a marker. A marker never become the reward- it ENSURES a treat reward. This is one of the most common mistakes made by people new to marker training. If you do not give a treat EVERY time you use the marker, it loses it value and meaning. ALWAYS treat after you use the marker. Marker= treat.

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Compare it too playing slot machines, you lose most of the time, but are addicted to playing for the few times you do get a cash payout. Its the same for a dog and a positive marker like "yes". Intermittent rewards.

This is also a valuable training technique called a variable ratio schedule of reinforcement, but is NOT a part of marker training. After your dog is taught a behavior, you drop the marker and begin using a variable schedule of reinforcement (VSR) instead of a treating every behavior.
A VSR (also called intermittent rewards) is when you give a treat for only some of the good behaviors done, the rest you withhold a treat and praise another way (if at all), like verbal or play.(If rewarding with play, you withhold the game and praise another way). When you don't give a treat, the dog wanders why and this increases his behavior performance in order to see if he gets a treat next time- the slot machine effect. This is the only time guessing is good for your dog. The guess of when he will get a treat keeps his obedience sharp.
This is only done after the dog is completely trained in a behavior and you are no longer using the marker to teach. Also, do not use a consistent pattern of intermittent rewards- vary it often keeping it as lean (less rewards) as your dog will work for. Only use a VSR on behaviors your dog knows, not ones he is learning.

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Can 'good boy' be used as a marker or is it a phrase used too often to be used as a marker? Seems like I say good boy whenever my dog does something well, and he associates the word with praise and love.

You have got the right idea. "good boy" and "praise and love" is great, but, used too often and in too many situations to give the the specific meaning of a properly conditioned marker like "yes". "Yes" is not used except in training. If anything, marker training eliminates confusion in your dog because it draws a clearer piture in the dogs mind of what you want.

A marker is not conditioned by using it too often. A marker is specifically trained so that the dog understands what it means- which should be that it marks the correct behavior and earns the dog a treat. It is not something you just start saying and hope the dog figures it out. There would be no purpose or benefit in using a marker unless the dog knew what it meant.
This is why "good dog", if not conditioned to be a marker will never become a marker. "Good Dog" earns the association of praise, and becomes a reward in itself, but is not as refined as a marker, identifying the exact moment a behavior occurred & ensuring a food reward. Therefore, you can use "good dog" in training and see results, but not a good as results as you would get with using a marker for teaching and then "good dog" as a verbal reinforcer later.

The marker word can be anything you want it to be, as long as you use it correctly. You can say "ice cream" if you want, as long as the dog knows that it earns him a treat when he hears it, you use it with the correct timing, and you ALWAYS give a treat for saying it.

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"Yes" instantly marks the desired behavior and helps associate the "command" or "cue" to the desired behavior quicker. Accelerated learning!

Marker training is helpful when adding the verbal command, but you can also use it to train behaviors without a command. Alot of behaviors trained with marker training never have a cue, only an action- like training a dog to be calm, or to stand with a higher tail in the show ring, or in shaping part of a behavior. Those are behaviors but not commands- they have no cue. Associating the command with the behavior depends on adding it at the right time and incorporating it with marker training in the learning phase in order to strengthen it's meaning.



Specifics, Specifics, Specifics- I know. It sounds very calculated and specific, but that is how marker training operates. If you generalize the meaning, there is no use or benefit from marker training. Once you learn the ins and outs, you'll never train without using a marker.

Alison Voore

Alison, I respectfully disagree...

I believe studies have actually shown that after you establish that your marker word means getting a treat, easing into only treating at random with the marker is MORE motivating to the dog & results in keener obedience to commands -- The rationale is:

Receiving a treat EVERY time they hear the marker word "spoils" the dog, because they come to expect it & grow bored -- But the scenario of "maybe I'll get the treat THIS time" actually causes the dog to work with greater enthusiasm...

I think this is a rather well accepted fact of K9 psychology.

 Quote: alison voore

..... defines the specific behavior done when the marker was delivered....

To me, this is the essence of marker-use.

How else can we "take a snapshot" (in Ed Frawley's terminology on one of the videos) of the exact behavior that we want, than to create a marker and then use it? There's no way I can get a treat or a pat or any other reward in place as instantaneously as I can a marker. "Yes" is pretty darned fast.

So giving value to the marker (with the tangible reward) and then using the marker to "mark" the desired behavior is perfect (for me, anyway).

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So, are markers really necessary if my technique is working for me?

Apparently not. It's working for you, right?

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Seems to me that the dog could get confused with the commands at first, having to associate 'sit' with sitting, then the 'yes' with a treat...

They don't get confused with anything preceding food, if you haven't noticed. Can opener, freezer door, reaching into pocket, etc...

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when with my way he just has to associate the sit with a treat.

Which is fine for your dog sitting. Apparently.

What's nice about the marker is that you can effectively "treat" at a distance. I can send him 30 yards away to his "place" and he'll understand what exactly is being reinforced once he gets there. I might want a sit, a down, a bark, whatever. He'll do that, and get his "treat" instantly, as opposed to assocating the treat with me walking to him, or him running back to me.

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Can 'good boy' be used as a marker or is it a phrase used too often to be used as a marker?

I use it. Works fine.

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Seems like I say good boy whenever my dog does something well, and he associates the word with praise and love.

Then use the word "dork" or "hey now". Whatever you want. It's just a noise.

Marker training became the law of the land with marine mammal trainers because there's just no way they could dispense the treat in a fashion timely enough for them to associate the treat with whatever specific behavior the trainer wanted many yards and many seconds away.

And it's a teaching tool. This business of being spoiled is a matter of not administering another tools in your psychological repetoire (positive punishment, positive reinforcement, negative reinforcement, negative punishment)

Good reference:

http://www.malinut.com/index.php/ref/write/oc/

Hi Richard,

If we think back to Pavlov and his dog, we know that, over time, when the bell rings the dog salivates. He does this because that ring came to mean that he was getting food. He associated one with the other. This is true of marker training. He associates the marker with the reward.

It is important to remember that studies, including Pavlov, have shown that the dog will eventually stop the salivating when the bell rings if the reward (food) is taken away for good. The marker then loses its value. The reward must therefore still follow, even if it's only occasionally.

It's my experience that what Candi said about NOT rewarding every time being even more motivational than doing it every time is true. This is also why I alternate treat rewards as opposed to rewarding with the same food every time. I just get better results that way, perhaps because the dog is mentally curious and therefore more attentive, I don't know.


In response to marker training, for basic obedience such as sit, stay, down, come...I think how you're doing it is fine. For more advanced obedience, I use a clicker for marking.

The reason I do this is because when complicated tricks or behaviors are being taught, you often have to do it in stages. With a clicker, you can mark each exact stage as it happens. Some people have excellent skills with verbal markers, but for most people a clicker is very fast and very clear with none of the ups and downs that a human voice can make.

Also, a clicker sound carries well and is unlike any other sound a dog is likely to hear. For that reason, it's very useful for me when I need to do distance work and I would have to otherwise yell the marker word which would change my tone.

Can most things be done with voice markers? Probably. But it's much clearer to dogs with a clicker, and in my personal experience with a wide range of dogs, it gains much faster results.

Edited to add: I also like marker traing, as opposed to just giving the dog a reward, because if I just shelled out the treat immediately after the desired behavior, I'd have a dog that is spastically sniffing my hand or following it immediately after performing. That looks bad and isn't good training, IMO. Marker training allows my dog to learn a little patience.

Candi,
You are confused with the purpose of marker training. It is to teach the dog, not maintain obedience.
That is why I mentioned the variable ratio schedule of reinforcement in my last post. Studies have been done thus creating and proving the need for the marker to always need a reward and the VSR be added after marker training.
You are combining two different studies proving different things, into one.

Receiving a treat every time your dog hears the marker does not spoil the dog. It strengthens & maintains the meaning of the marker.
Receiving a treat every time a dog obeys "spoils" the dog. "Spoils" meaning the dog's performance decreases, leading to slower behaviors, less motivation, less enthusiasm, and less obedience. Would you work extra hard if you found out you get paid the same for doing little all day? That is why the VSR slot machine effect keeps your dog in good obedience.

Remember: Markers teach. VSR and corrections maintains & raise obedience.

You don't use markers continuously. You only use them for the beginning stages of training a new behavior. Then you drop the marker and begin a VSR. Once a behavior is learned and on cue, there’s no need to mark, since the dog understands the behavior.