My 3 year old, female black lab, who I got at a shelter when she was 10 months old, has always had dog-on-dog agression issues. I'm fairly certain it is fear based.

I've taken her to 3 different trainers, who took the money and talked the hole time, no training ever took place. So, paid dog trainers are OUT! Never again will I pay a trainer.

Now the rant is over, and on to the issue. I know one woman who trains dogs as a hobby and has been able to train this dog, and she's been able to control her around other dogs.

I have had varying levels of success. I've controlled the problem with the dog across the street, but I cannot eliminate the problem with the dog walking towards her, on the same side of the street.

Since I know the dog is capable of overcoming the issue, I would like to know what to try next.

She can do basic obediance, sit, stay, come, down, and walks on a leash, realtively well.

Any helpful hints will be appreciated, except pay for a trainer....

It may be a confidence issue. People can't help but get tense when they see a potential problem coming up on the horizon- but dogs seem to sense it. My vizsla mix for example, will go bonkers if I tighten the lead and tense up when another dog passes, but if I pretend I don't even see the other dog, sometimes he doesn't react at all.

So if you haven't already, try just being more relaxed and confident. Pretend nothing is going to happen (but be prepared to control her if something does).

Other than that, I'm sure others will chime in with more advice.

Hi Dave and welcome.

I'm sorry about your encounter with those money-sucking trainers.

Believe it or not, your problem is an easy one to fix by using the dog's pack drive to your advantage.

The important thing to keep in mind here is that if you can get the dog to respect and to trust you entirely as pack leader, she won't feel the need to put up all this aggression when she feels vulnerable.

First, make sure that you don't ever allow another dog to approach her (no matter how friendly it may seem). If you encounter loose dogs on walks, it's your job as pack leader to step in between your girl and the other dog and to drive the other dog away.
This alone will go a huge way towards alleviating her fears. If she sees you as a strong pack leader who steps in at the first sign of trouble (from her point of view, other dogs are scary and dangerous) she'll learn that she can trust you to keep her safe and this will take the burden of fear off her mind.

This continues for the life of the dog.


The second step is to correct her for showing aggression. Remember, you're the pack leader, not her. The leader is the one who decides when and where to show aggression. If you tell her to stop being aggressive and she ignores you, she doesn't respect you as her leader (it doesn't matter if she's doing this out of fear or out of dominance, you correct the same way).

In order to correct her, you pretty much have two options: either use a prong collar, or use a dominant dog collar (a nylon choke collar).

1. If you use a prong collar: make sure it's fitted properly. Click here to see how to do that if you don't already know.

When your dog shows aggression to another dog, tell her NO in a calm firm voice. If she ignores your verbal warning, give her a jerk on the leash. Be careful you don't over correct to the point of traumatizing her, but also make sure you don't give a nagging and ineffective correction.

If she ignores the prong collar correction, your correction was too weak. The response you want is for her to immediately break off eye contact with the other dog (she'll probably let out a little yelp) and to come back to your side and pay attention to YOU.

Once she does, don't fuss over her. Stay as aloof and relaxed as you can (don't tense up on the leash!!); remember, as Heather said, you have to show her by your own behaviour that the appropriate response is to stay calm.
You can give her one quiet "that's better" to reassure her, but otherwise, just go on with your walk and act completely unconcerned with the situation or with her reaction.

2. If you use a nylon choke collar: again, make sure it's fitted properly. The collar should be snug and fit high on the neck.
When your dog shows aggression, once again, tell her NO first and give her 2 or 3 seconds to do the right thing.
If she ignores your warning, DON'T pop the leash, but quietly lift the leash straight up above her head so that the collar tightens around her neck.
Put enough pressure that you pick her front feet an inch or two off the ground and hold her there until she stops the aggression.

Do this as CALMLY as you possibly can. Remember, by cutting off her air supply, you're showing her that you're in control and that it's you that she should be focusing on, not the other dog.



Whichever form of correction you choose, it's important that you not wait until the other dog is walking up to her and she starts freaking out. Otherwise it'll take a much higher level of correction to get her attention.

When she sees a dog on the other side of the street and you can see her focusing on it (but not out of control yet), give her the warning (NO) and follow (within 3 seconds) with a leash correction. If you do this right, she'll come back to you and will knock off the aggression.

As you progress, you should quickly reach a point (probably within a couple of sessions) where a simple NO will cause her to break off eye contact with a dog on the other side of the street.

You can then slowly move on to a more difficult situation, where the other dog is a little bit closer. Eventually, she should be able to stay focused on YOU even with another dog only feet away (this might take a while, but it's not hard to accomplish).

Don't rush this, and don't forget to keep up your end of the deal. She leaves you in charge to deal with threatening situations, but in return you MUST protect her from other dogs.

Don't worry about offending anyone. If someone can't keep their dog under control, raise your voice at the dog and tell it to GET LOST. Charge the other dog if you have to. This is usually all it takes to get dogs to back off and leave you alone.

If you ever encounter a really aggressive or persistent dog, kick it or mace it if you have to.

If the owner complains to the police, tell them that you were fearing for your OWN safety (not your dog's) and that you thought you were about to be attacked. You have the right to defend yourself and you won't get into trouble for that.


Best of luck, Dave

If you ever want to watch a demonstration of the techniques I mentioned, you can get Ed Frawley's "Dealing with Dominant and Aggressive Dogs" DVD. While your dog may not be dominant at all, the methods for solving dog-on-dog aggression issues are very clearly demonstrated and explained.

Hi there Dave and welcome to the forum!

Yuko pretty much summed it up, I would only emphasize what she said about not waiting until your dog is already loosing her marbles before you do the correction.

The correction should come when she just first starts to fixate on the other dog, NOT when she's already going ballistic. At that point, it is very hard to get through to your dog and teach it anything. Compare it to a bar fight! It's much easier to talk someone out of fighting before the punches start flying!

My personal suggestion would be using the prong (Yuko's #1) first. I have found that it's highly effective if used correctly.

And finally, I'd be interested to hear what these trainers you paid talked about. I have no idea how you managed to get three trainers in a row who didn't do any exercises with you and your dog, but I will say that we're not all bad!! If you ever do find yourself in a position that you need a trainer, you should absolutely be able to ask them about their methods and what you can expect from the training sessions BEFORE you pay a dime.

For me personally, the first session is a free consultation where there IS talking involved, with no technical training going on. I want to meet the person, discuss the issues and needs of the clients and meet the dog before there is any actual training that goes on. I used to do it without the initial consultation and many times wished I had.

Why? Because it's very important that the trainer and the client be on the same page before any training takes place...because they are essentially a team and have to work in tandem. NOTHING will be accomplished if the owner doesn't expect to have to do anything and if I'm dealing with that kind of person, it's best that I know that up front. A huge part of dog training is training the owner.

I'm wondering if this is what happened with some of the trainers you encountered...if it was a consultation? Did you meet any of them more than once? Of course, it's often true that there are some unethical people out there who will try to take your money without doing any actual work, but there ARE good trainers as well.

If you put time and research into this, I think you can do it yourself. You'll find that this board is an incredibly valuable tool. But be warned...there are some trainers here!

Hi Everyone,

Thanks for all your replies. Unfortunately, my reply is tried it, tried it, bought it, read some more and tried it some more.....I have the DVD's, the prong collar, and the dominant/aggressive dog collar. I've also tried the gental leader but those are completely worthless. Even one trainer I hired who trained police and military dogs for his entire career was surprised by her reaction. Trouble is, he spent too much time talking and not enough time training. At 100/hour, he only lasted 2 or 3 sessions, I think I canceled the third.

Both my dogs are walked every morning and evening, 7 days a week, rain or shine. I purposely go while other people are out walking their dogs so she sees other dogs on the leash all the time.

The most important point I can think of is she has no problem socializing with other dogs when not on a leash. Any time she's gotten loose, she's ended up at a neighbor's house and bonded with the another dog. Never a fight or any other problem.

She's at the point where she doesn't respond to prong collar corrections. Her neck has grown thick and strong.

She almost has to be picked up by the prong collar and held until she can't breath, that cannot be the answer.

I always watch her body language and I can instantly tell when she senses another dog. I give the correction anytime she starts to growl or bark at the other dog.

I've tried ignoring the other dogs, not tensing the leash, and letting her decide how she'll react. Sometimes it works, other times it doesn't.

I do basic training every day. She sleeps in a crate at night. Food and toys are always picked up before I leave.

Until I find some new ideas, I'm afraid I'll be in the "crank and yank" training mode.

You are not giving (or willing to give?) the dog a correction he can respect.

Your timing is off.

Prong collars make aggression issues worse 9 times out of 10. Use a nylon choke.

The type of correction a dog like this needs if you truly want to fix the problem is not something the average neighbor will understand, assuming the dog really is as bad as you describe. The street is not your best training location.

Your goal should not be to fix dog aggression, but rather to control it. Maybe that's what your goal is, I only skimmed over this thread But this is a very gradual long term thing. This could take a year of consistent proper corrections and perfect timing.

Your dog does not need to and should not socialize with other dogs. Avoid the situation that stimulates your dog as best you can. For every time your dog is out of your control is 1 more time that your dog was permitted to behave that way. For every minute your dog is around another dog off leash is 1 minute more that another dog can do something to your dog to create an even worse setback and send you back to square -10.

Paid trainers are not a waste of money if you have the right trainer.

Would also like to add that working on dog aggression issues can be very frustrating, n often times dog owners take it personal and get angry during the process. You should never correct out of anger, always calm, always firm, always assertive. If the dog listens to one person and not the other then there is obviously a difference in handling style. Odds are the other person is not stressed by the situation because it's not their dog, the difference in handling could simply be the different state of mind between handlers, you communicate your mood to the dog with everything you do, n disguising it with a happy voice and a loose lead doesn't work.

there's a really good thread on here about dog-on-dog aggression with some EXCELLENT training ideas from Anne Vaini--Connie, can you help???

 Quote: ann freier

there's a really good thread on here about dog-on-dog aggression with some EXCELLENT training ideas from Anne Vaini--Connie, can you help???

Despite the AmStaff title, I think it might be this one:

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/ubb/showflat/Number/80866/page/0/fpart/1

Dave,

First off, I would like to let you know that I am not a trainer and a novice when it comes to understanding dogs. In fact, I have asked for advice from the very people on this forum in reference to an eleven year old female Akita I have. Believe me, you can't get a dog anymore set in her way than this.

This dog, Amy, was feared, locked away, and perhaps abused by her previous owners. We've only had her for two years. It took us quite a few months to work on being able to pet her, put collars on her, and finally being able to handle her roughly if necessary. This dog was very dog-aggressive and to a point, people aggressive. The previous owners were of the mind that she needed to be destroyed. To this day, Amy is still aggressive, but we have learned to curb quite a bit of this aggression.

A prong collar was recommended, as well as the dominance collar. I've never used the dominance collar, but the theory seems sound. As for the prong collar, this works through the extremely thick fur of an Akita. Initially she'd try to fight it and lunge at other dogs. Within a week or two I have learned to anticipate a confrontation between her and another dog. I've paid close attention to her in the past; studied her body language, her whines--the whole works. I immediately tell her "No!" in a firm (but not angry) voice, tighten the prong collar, and change directions. When she insists on ignoring me, I continue to do the same thing again (increasing the pressure exerted by the prong collar each time). I do this as many times as it takes to get her to calmly walk away. Though the results are not huge, they are noticeable. Everyday, she starts to listen just a little bit better, and struggles just a little bit less with me.

Aggressive dogs are perhaps one of the worst dogs for a novice owner to train. They need someone who can be a pack leader. They need consistency. And they need time---lots of it. My other dog, a 4 month old Rottweiler, is doing laps around Amy when it comes to training. This is mostly because the Rottweiler doesn't have aggression problems to work through. He readily accepts me as the pack leader, whereas Amy is of the mind "show me what you got."

So with this aggressive dog you have, you're going to have to realize that there isn't a "quick fix" and there will be results from all your hard work, but it will be slow and small. The most important thing you can do with your dog is change you --- change the way you act, learn about dog behavior (maybe not to the point of being an expert, but a little would help), and try a new training technique for a few months, as opposed to a few days or weeks.

The trainers in the past might've been trying to teach you to change your behavior. That might've been one of the reasons you didn't notice much training in regards to the dog. With aggressive dogs, the way the owner acts around an aggressive dog is a huge part of the training.

It is possible for a novice who takes advice from trainers to have some success with an aggressive dog. These things just take time. So be patient. Your dog will come around eventually.

Sincerely,

Jennifer