OK since every topic I go under seems to head toward "the real" thing vs. sport training I decided to start it under it's own topic. Why is there so much animosity towards the dog sports by several members of the board? There are several members that believe that a Schutzhund dog won't bite for real. Now before we get into this just let me say I know the vast majority of Schutzhund titled dogs wouldn't bite for real but plenty of street dogs (not schutzhund trained) won't either. Why such the disgust towards people who do Schutzhund that offer advice when asked? I think you can have best of both worlds, a sport dog that bites for real. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

The answer is very simple. Some idiots think that just because a dog is titled it will bite for “real” and some idiots think that just because a dog is title it will not bite for “real”. Schutzhund was designed to test the working ability of a dog for breeding purposes. A litter that is born out of two Schutzhund titled dogs in an ideal world should have the genetics to do PSW, PPW or SW. Of course that is not true but that is what was originally intended.

You see Ken you are I can be on the same page.

Part of the issue for the "real" people is they see no use in a dog that won't bite for "real". In a lot of cases they see trials as advanced obedience with "bites". The trial is always the same so it is a test of the ability of the trainer and dog to follow a pattern, not a test of the dogs working ability.

Ok Vince, now I am going to irritate everybody.

If you train for "real" you have a big problem. You can train for anything you want over and over and have a "hard" dog that tears everything up. Knocks the aggitator on his butt every time. But the dog knows the aggitator and "knows" what to "expect" from them. They have spent a lot of time working together. The dog just looks great!!!

So how do you know it really will bite for "real"? The answer is YOU DON"T!!! The only way you know for sure is to get into a situation where the dog has to bite for "real". How do you proof the dog? Hang $20's out of your pocket and go walk around the bad part of town and hope someone will rob you? Not very pratical, you have no control over the situation. If the dog doesn't bite you may be dead.

So what can you do? Enter a trial. Now the dog, and you, are stressed. The dog doesn't know the aggitators, and it isn't on it's home field. Any dog can look good working an aggitator it knows, but somebody new may be a totally different story.

Ok so you don't think Schutzhund is a good test? Try a different trial. There are lots of them. Yea you may hve to train for some things you don't find useful, but it is an oppotunity to test your dog in unfamilar circumstances. Some of the trials are designed to test dogs more for "real" life. I will use NAPD since I know about it. The obedience is basic obedience everybody does. Sits, downs, recalls, and distractions. Very inventive distractions, aggitators in full bite suits comming up to shake your hand, throwing balls, playing catch, spraying water, anything they can think of. And you don't find out what it is until the day of the trial.

Protection same thing. Call offs, working away from the handler, "kidnap" scenarios, passive bites, fighting outs, long send outs, guns, hoses, buckets of water, obstructions, different footing, leaf blowers, multiple bites, discrimination between a dummy bite suit and a real person.
I have seen people just walk up and do well from other trial diciplines. The first trial I watched had a dog from French Ring placed. The current National champ has a PH1 and PH2 from KNPV.

These trials are tough, I have seen trials where not a single dog passed all the scenarios. Every single dog took a zero on one exercise or another. I am not sure, but I don't know of a single dog that has reached the top title level. This is tough work. It's fun too. It is a real test of both dog and handler.

I have absolutely nothing against Schutzhund or any other dog sport. In fact, I plan to get at least a "B" on my next dog. It has it's good things about it. I competed in the "B" at Schnauzerfest 1995 and met some very nice and supportive people. But it has changed a lot from it's original purpose, which was to select and train military and police dogs. Ed Frawley also has a point about the difference between the sport and show lines. I loathe the way the show dogs -- both German and American -- look.Ed Frawley's dogs mostly have the conformation I like to see. But, I digress, a person should not generalize about what dog will protect. It depends on the individual dog as to whether it will protect, not whether it was trained in sport or whatever. My little pet Kooikerhondje backed down a Rottweiler once.

Kelly,
Are a dogs levels of dominance towards a human adversarie and another dog really linked? Is the abscene or presence of one indicative of same in another?. More a observation than a question.

A Rottweiler is not the only thing that he has backed off. He backed a guy away from me who he felt was threatening me. Keep in mind that he is only a little guy, but he thinks he is a German Shepherd. as he was raised up with one. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

Brendan -
I can tell you this about the APBT. They, when well bred, are almost never people aggressive, but are hell on wheels with other dogs.
In fact some of them are very shy towards people, but in my experience they are the most aggressive toward other dogs.
So, if I understood your question, the two don't go together.

I don't have any animosity toward dog sports but I believe thats simply what it is - a sport. The more I watch and learn about it the more it just doesn't seem to be a good test of working ability - its too ritualized. The test is the work. If spending all that time teaching footstep tracking, why not just work with the dog on real tracking? Footstep tracking goes against the dog's natural abilities. Same for the other pieces.

A sporting dog is not a working dog - sport is sport. Doesn't mean a sporting dog can't become a working dog.