We are validated in an avalanche profile and are thinking about a summer profile. Alert for our avi work is digging to victim and tug them out with rag, or dig up and pull out human scented article (used to simulate deeper burrial and leave in place 24 hrs so no track)

Our summer search work in the past has been focused on our goal of avi validation and includes live quarry and large human scented articles.

Our summer validation will include three large human scented articles. Dog can retrieve them, or use some kind of alert.

I have begun teaching a bark alert for live quarry, as a real missing person will not have a rag ready for my dog to bite as soon as they are found, plus if the dog is out of my sight, I want the bark.

Now getting closer to my question. To get him to speak before the reward is produced, it must be completely hidden or he will try to bite reward rag with no bark. As soon as reward rag is even starting to be produced (after barking), he will hit it hard. I have never punished him for lack of precision with teeth when rewarding for a find, that said, he does not bite indescriminatley, he wants to bite the rag not people.

Looking for safe ways to have the rag hidden and then produced by my quarry without my dog scarring the sh** out of them and me being left with know one to quarry for me. Should I have quarry throw the rag (dog will return for tugs), or should I have them hold on to it for the dog to engage. Does it matter? Gonna need gloves for my quarry either way for I suppose. For my purposes, I want the quarry to have the reward, not me.

Any advice appreciated.

I should mention this is air scent work, not tracking, but I did not know where else to post it.

Cheers,
Jennifer

Also in my first post it should be "scaring" as in someone being scared, not "scarring" as in leaving a scar, the sh** out of people

No one has ever been hurt LOL!

Cheers,

 Quote: jennifer coulter

Looking for safe ways to have the rag hidden and then produced by my quarry without my dog scarring the sh** out of them and me being left with know one to quarry for me. Should I have quarry throw the rag (dog will return for tugs), or should I have them hold on to it for the dog to engage. Does it matter? Gonna need gloves for my quarry either way for I suppose. For my purposes, I want the quarry to have the reward, not me.

Any advice appreciated.

This is a simple training issue. Teach your dog to only take then tug when he is told to (either by you or the helper) via verbal command (he must not take it even if it is in full view). Start teaching him this yourself (outside of the search training) and then transfer the behavior to your helper.

I like to use tugging on the toy as a reward. Then the dog is working for "the game" (tugging with the helper) vs. just possession of the toy. You need good helpers (people that won't be afraid of your dog) when you start wilderness search training.

These are simple explanations - PM me if you want more detail.

 Quote: jennifer coulter

Also in my first post it should be "scaring" as in someone being scared, not "scarring" as in leaving a scar, the sh** out of people

No one has ever been hurt LOL!

Cheers,

He He
My Dutch is a "bark" alert dog and he scares some of my victims also. He will not really go for the tug unless it is presented but he fakes some of them out so they will throw it. He comes back for the "game" also.

I make sure that I train my victims before they ever go hide for the dogs, this way they know what each of my dogs will do when they "find" them.

We work the dogs in on the field here and they also watch experienced "victims" work. They learn the "simple" techniques on reward and then we start plugging in more complicated things as they get more comfortable with the dogs.

We teach our victims to do all kinds of weird things so that the dogs get used to it. Walking, running, lying down, in trees, yelling and waving their arms ect.....

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I like to use tugging on the toy as a reward. Then the dog is working for "the game" (tugging with the helper) vs. just possession of the toy.

This is what we do already. If the quarry lets go of the toy, he shoves it right back at him for more tugs. He is in it for the tug %100. It is just that he wants it right away when "in drive", and a drive I have workded hard at building.

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This is a simple training issue. Teach your dog to only take then tug when he is told to (either by you or the helper) via verbal command (he must not take it even if it is in full view). Start teaching him this yourself (outside of the search training) and then transfer the behavior to your helper.

Out side of searching this is not an issue. We use a tug toy for obedience and he will "leave it" and "take it", on command. I use his release "OK' to signal he can be released from his obedience command and start tugging.

I know that I could do as you say and delay him until I want him to get the reward. I may end up doing that. My biggest problem is not messing up our winter profile. In examination for that profile, it is frowned apon for permission to be needed, to drive to the reward. For example:

If our validation includes a human scented article of clothing, burried a 70-100 cms down, the dog must dig frantically to it and start pulling it out with no direction from the handler. In our searching the reward IS ragging with that burried article and the drive for it must be high. If the dog is looking for permission, and the handler is not watching (distracted by the very real distractions on a slide path), the danger would be that the dog does not get permission and being well trained not to do anything without permission, moves on.

My dog is a bit on the side of handler bound already, and if he is constantly looking at me for permission to get the reward in the winter profile, we will fail.

In the summer (when training for the avi profile) we were taught to have the quarry hide, holding the rag/tug reward. When the dog finds the person, he grabs the rag and only then does the quarry come to life and the WOO HOOS and tugging begins.

This is acceptable for our summer profile as well. It is only that I wanted the bark, it is not needed for our examination, but I think it makes sense for "real life".

I was thinking if he got used to my quarry throwing the reward up in the air, he would get conditioned to that and then would not be so keen to just grab it out of the person's hands as they are producing it. He would grab it from the air or ground and shove it at the person for tugging.

Still thinking.....I do have an upcomming course in 3 weeks, maybe I will have to ask the instructors and examiners if they think that waiting for permission for the reward is the way to go.

If "permission to tug" is the direction we follow, I may post you for more info on your techniques.

I do aggree that good quarry will be needed. I might be buying lots of beer this summer to ensure the quarry is up to the task Hard to beleive anyone would be afraid of a 40lbs floppy eared dog in drive, they are just lucky I didn't get a Mal

Cheers,

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I make sure that I train my victims before they ever go hide for the dogs, this way they know what each of my dogs will do when they "find" them.

This is an excellent point! As I have just started the bark alert for reward, I am just learning my dog's behavior for this task. I should stick with some experienced quarry until I know exactly how to train new ones for this particular situation.

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We teach our victims to do all kinds of weird things so that the dogs get used to it. Walking, running, lying down, in trees, yelling and waving their arms ect.....

This is very important, as you can imagine, there is only one way an avalanche victim will be , but many ways a wilderness profile victim may present! I have been mostly working unresponsive at present as our goal has been the bark, but will love to move on the the endless possibilities.

Of course there is training for validation and training for real life. It is ironic a bit that our summer profile test will not even include live quarry, but instead large articles. I am not working a bark alert for these for reasons relating to our winter work.

Thank you for your response!

 Quote: jennifer coulter

I know that I could do as you say and delay him until I want him to get the reward. I may end up doing that. My biggest problem is not messing up our winter profile. In examination for that profile, it is frowned apon for permission to be needed, to drive to the reward. For example:

If our validation includes a human scented article of clothing, burried a 70-100 cms down, the dog must dig frantically to it and start pulling it out with no direction from the handler. In our searching the reward IS ragging with that burried article and the drive for it must be high. If the dog is looking for permission, and the handler is not watching (distracted by the very real distractions on a slide path), the danger would be that the dog does not get permission and being well trained not to do anything without permission, moves on.

My dog is a bit on the side of handler bound already, and if he is constantly looking at me for permission to get the reward in the winter profile, we will fail.

What I meant was that the "permission" (command that its OK to take the tug) comes from the helper at that point, not from the handler.

If I understand correctly, in avi work you want the dog to dig and then pull on the person's clothing. In wilderness, you want the dog to respect the person's space and bark. Is this correct?

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In the summer (when training for the avi profile) we were taught to have the quarry hide, holding the rag/tug reward. When the dog finds the person, he grabs the rag and only then does the quarry come to life and the WOO HOOS and tugging begins.

This is acceptable for our summer profile as well. It is only that I wanted the bark, it is not needed for our examination, but I think it makes sense for "real life".

This doesn't make sense to me. Some sort of alert (other than mobbing the victim) should be trained for wilderness. I agree that you need a bark alert (or a re-find alert). If no alert is trained, how would the handler know that their dog has found someone if he is out of sight when he locates them?

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I was thinking if he got used to my quarry throwing the reward up in the air, he would get conditioned to that and then would not be so keen to just grab it out of the person's hands as they are producing it. He would grab it from the air or ground and shove it at the person for tugging.

Seems to me that this would work.

I've never trained my dogs to give me different alerts for different situations. I've always trained one alert for all areas if I cross-train a dog in different disciplines (wilderness, water, disaster - all bark alert). I think this makes things very clear to the dog. Find = bark. After all, there is no room for error when we're dealing with locating lost people.

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Still thinking.....I do have an upcomming course in 3 weeks, maybe I will have to ask the instructors and examiners if they think that waiting for permission for the reward is the way to go.

Sounds like a good idea. Certainly taking advice from folks who have trained their avi search dogs for wilderness would be the best solution.

Jennifer,

If your certification requires the dog to actively try to dig out a buried quarry you may want to rethink having him bark to show indication. If the dog has a choise of either A or B and only A will pass the test then I would only stick with option A in your training program.

However, training the dog to bark is not that difficult in itself. First you need a command to get the dog to bark (i.e. I tell my dog "talk" and she will bark on that command). The the quarry just witholds the tug reward until the dog barks. It can go like this; dog finds an unburied quarry and is getting excited for the game.. quarry does not respond to dog... handler gives dog command "talk"... dog barks and quarry immediatley produces the tug for reward. That's it.

Now as the dog progresses with the new indication, command/encourage the dog to bark longer while you praise (good boy-good talk), all the while the quarry will at this point withold the reward longer and longer. After the dog has had a few successes barking for about 45 to 60 seconds, with intensity, to "produce" reward, eliminate your command word for the bark from the next search. Now when the dog finds the quarry and makes the choice to bark on his own (without command) the reward is instantly presented. Then follow the previous steps without the barking command.

As far as producing the tug safely (for dog and decoy), that is the responsibility of the decoy, particularly if the dog is off leash.

P.S. Where are you? I'd be happy to quarry for you.