I have been training my lab with the "Basic Dog Obedience" video with much success. In the video, Ed reccomends the Flinks video, saying it is a way to take the training up a notch. So, I have the "Building Drive and Focus" DVD now and have started building drive with her. In "Basic Obedience," Ed also says that these two videos can be done together. Can someone elaberate on how to use these two videos together?

Rick, I don't have the building drive and focus video *yet*, but from what I know so far, taking it up a notch as far as motivating your dog makes a huge improvement on obedience. If you only use treats, your dog may become bored and you have to look for something else. It's always good to mix it up. You want your dog to be at a certain level. If your dog has way too much drive, you need to calm it down a bit so it can focus. If your dog lacks drive, you need to amp it up.

 Quote: Alex Corral

Rick, I don't have the building drive and focus video *yet*...

I am not sure why you are posting, then, but you are the only person to try and answer the question, so thanks, anyway!

 Quote: Alex Corral

...but from what I know so far, taking it up a notch as far as motivating your dog makes a huge improvement on obedience. If you only use treats, your dog may become bored and you have to look for something else.

Bella is VERY food motivated, so the marker training from the Basic Obedience DVD worked very well. She also has a high prey drive, as the drive buiding work has shown me. So, I am not really motivating her MORE as much as in a different way, as far as I can see things. That said, I think it is very healthy to do both. As you say here:

 Quote: Alex Corral

It's always good to mix it up.

Agreed.

 Quote: Alex Corral

You want your dog to be at a certain level. If your dog has way too much drive, you need to calm it down a bit so it can focus. If your dog lacks drive, you need to amp it up.

This seems to sound logical, but on the Flinks DVD, I thought the dogs were in HIGH drive while they were focusing. I thought that was the point was to control the dog while it was in a high state of drive. After the dog can focus, you teach the commands. Any thoughts??

This is all very similar to the Basic Obedience's concept of increasing distraction. At first you mark when the butt hits the ground on a sit, then a moment later, then even a moment later, then walk around the dog, then away from the dog, etc. This is the same thing you do with the Flinks method, it seems to me...So, my question now is what is the difference between these two methods; are they not fundamentally the same? Thanks!

I havent looked at the basic obedience dvd in a long time, but isn't it more about having a well behaved, obedient pet and the Building Drive and focus would be the next level as far as a competition obedience dog?

Rick,

As explained by Ed here: http://leerburg.com/drives.htm

Working in prey drive is really a game. The more amped up the dog is to play the game (be it with a tug, kong, or ball) the more motivated (and focused) he is to follow your commands to continue the game. So yes, in Flinks' video the dogs are in high drive AND have learned control to continue the game.

Marking training (with treats or with a toy)sets the foundation for learning the commands. Using the dog's natural drive allows you to build on and add to that foundation.

My dog loves his treats but he will do absolutely anything to play ball. His obedience is excellent and snappy when there is a ball "reward" involved, somewhat less so when it's a treat. And the more amped up he is to play, the more he must focus AND obey to get what he wants.

For "Average Joe" owner, marker training may be enough for their companion pet. Building drive seems to be a necessity for any potential working/sport dog (or so I've read here ). The 2 methods work together and compliment each other but aren't(at least to my inexperienced eyes)the same thing.

Sheesh..I hope I got that right

Rick,

Some good information so far from the other posters. However, there was one error; if a dog has way too much drive, it should not be calmed down in the sense of depleting the dog's drive level. The level of drive needs to be harnessed and applied to your training. This is done by witholding drive satisfaction until the dog calms his nerves while remaining in high drive.

Alex, if that's what you meant... appoligies.

The two dvds work well together for a trainer that is an apt pupil. Otherwise I would recommend that basic OB and drive work are trained seperately from each other to avoid undue stress on the dog. For the apt pupil, however, the two tapes mesh exceptionally to apply the concept of Drive-Compulsion-Drive. This concept is explained in the second video of the Flinks series, but for one with good grasp of the basics the ability to apply this skill set to a dog's training regime is much higher.

Thanks Brad! It seems you understand this method well!

 Quote: brad . martin

The two dvds work well together for a trainer that is an apt pupil. Otherwise I would recommend that basic OB and drive work are trained seperately from each other to avoid undue stress on the dog.

 Quote: brad . martin

For the apt pupil, however, the two tapes mesh exceptionally to apply the concept of Drive-Compulsion-Drive.

I trained the dog using the Basic Obedience DVD, and found out about the Flinks DVD only after watching Basic, so I did train Basic first. If you would, explain how the "apt trainer" would use these two styles together to learn basic obedience. Especially how "Drive-Compulsion-Drive" works with Basic Obedience. Thanks!

 Quote: Brad . Martin

..Some good information so far from the other posters. However, there was one error; if a dog has way too much drive, it should not be calmed down in the sense of depleting the dog's drive level. The level of drive needs to be harnessed and applied to your training. This is done by witholding drive satisfaction until the dog calms his nerves while remaining in high drive.

Alex, if that's what you meant... appoligies.

No apologies needed Brad. That is what I meant, you just explained it better. If you listen to some of Ed's podcasts, he talks about finding a dog with tremendous drive, but not using toys right away because the dog can't focus. He says to use food instead. Once the dog has more training, add the toys to keep the drive up and for distraction. That's what I wanted to get accross. My dog doesn't have that super drive all the time, so I use toys to amp her up. When I'm teaching her a new command, I will usually use food because it's easier and she focuses better *for learning*. For exercises, we use toys. It keeps the obedience fresh and snappy.

Rick,

Well let's see... In the Basic OB video it is mentioned that when a correction is given to a dog it must be immediately followed up with a "good dog" once the dog corrects its behavior. In a nut shell (and very very small one!) that's pretty much it. The dog is put into drive, corrected for non-compliance, and then put into drive again. That's the concept; but application of this concept is not easy to do!!! The correction has to be properly timed and at an appropriate level to be effective for the dog (involves other variables), follwed up, etc...
It takes practice.

This is where the apptitude of the trainer comes into question. If a positive correction, of any kind, is poorly administered then the training suffers or worse the dog's temperament can also be affected. It's my recommendation to all new trainers to begin their programs with positive reinforcement marker training. What this does is teaches the handler to learn the principles of the techniques and how to apply them without any stress to the dog, should the handler screw up. The principles of PR and compulsion are the same (i.e. timing, praise, delivery of reward/correction, etc..) so once the handler has mastered PR techniques then I feel comfortable teaching them how to use positive corrections. I have no problem telling someone that a physical correction, inapproriately delivered, is abusive. No offense to you, I'm just offering my perspective.

I don't know what level you are at in your training or as a handler but some reading I can recommend from the main Leerburg site are the articles, "Ed Frawley's Philosophy on Dog Training", "The Theory of Corrections in Dog Training", "The Theory of Motivation in Dog Training", "How to fit a Prong Collar", "Train your Dog Using Markers",the concept of D-C-D was also writen about and gives excellent insight to the reader, but I can't find the name of that article.

My advise is that if you do not feel 150% that you understand the concept of correction, and 200% that you can properly apply a correction then do not attempt to incorporate compulsion into your drive work yet.

Alex,

Thanks for being so understanding. :smile:
I agree with your last post BTW... I haven't heard any of the podcasts; still no mp3
But I too use food in the acquisition phases of training. Realistically I don't expect a dog to respond to a command they have nto been taught even while the dog is in drive. It can be done and it is shown in the Flinks dvds, but I guess I am not that apt, LOL.