Whining in the crate
#148420 - 07/15/2007 07:14 AM |
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Koda has started whining in his crate and it's driving me crazy. He readily goes in with no problem, eats in the crate and other than his walk, play time and doing his business, he stays in the crate. We ignore him for the most part because I know his whining is his way of protesting. The crate is in our living room and his whining and carrying on is so bad at times we resort to watching t.v. in the den.
The crate is very large and there isn't anywhere else to put it. Because I live in Florida, we have no basement otherwise, he would be there.
Any suggestions? I have a Dogtra no-bark collar. Should I use that or would it be ineffective on the whining?
Edited by sandra faye johnson (07/15/2007 07:15 AM)
Edit reason: added a word
Sandra Johnson |
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: sandra faye johnson ]
#148421 - 07/15/2007 07:20 AM |
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How old is Koda? Does he have anything in his crate to keep him occupied? A kong or something to chew on?
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Mike J Schoonbrood ]
#148426 - 07/15/2007 09:02 AM |
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Make sure he has toys in the crate, treat dispensing ones are great.
The bark collar should work on whinning, especially if it is that loud. Bark collars sense vibration of the vocal cords and shock. If he is old enough to wear it, you can use it.
If you don't want to use the bark collar or he is too young, try a squirt bottle. Fill it with regular old tap water and squirt him when he whines. I find giving the 'quiet' command, followed by squirting until the whinning stops works pretty well. They learn pretty quickly that the water stops when the whinning stops.
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: sandra faye johnson ]
#148448 - 07/15/2007 12:46 PM |
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Sandra,
I've been more or less trying to follow the new program you have instituted with your pack. (Have you been checking your PMs?) I'm wondering though, if Koda is getting enough exercise and mental stimulation to balance all the new crate time you expect him to do? He sounds like a bright dog and bright dogs don't usually relish suddenly being stuck in their crates for lengthy periods of time .... especially if you are in the house too and the other dogs in the pack are free to roam about the house.
I guess what I'm getting at is this: Are the other dogs crated too? Do you rotate through your pack, giving them each some individual freedom? (Tethered to you if need be, but still more "freedom" than constantly being crated) Do they each get plenty of special one-on-one time with you ... for fun and for training?
NILIF is a tough love program designed to take everything away from your dog and make him thoroughly dependent on you. Great, but you still have to meet your dog's needs for simulation and activity. You can't just put them in their crate and expect them to be content to sit there several hours a day. Remember, this is a whole new concept for your dog too!
I have a dog who is not too thrilled about being crated when I am home and in the house, so this is something I've been actively working to improve. I schedule several crate breaks throughout the day where we do a variety of activities. We do some long walks (30 minute minimum), several 10-minute training sessions, some fetch/tug sessions and he gets some "hanging out with Mom" time while I do certain chores outside, like watering the garden, hanging out the laundry, checking the mail, etc. I always try to predict when my dog has reached his confinement limit and beat him to the punch. In other words, I want to get him out of his crate and go do something to burn off excess energy before he starts whining. Otherwise I have to wait until he shuts up long enough that I'm not rewarding him (for whining) by taking him out of his crate. I've been working on stretching these breaks further and further apart and I'm starting to see some improvement. I think the thing for my guy was that he had to learn to trust that he wasn't "stuck" in his crate forever. Now that he knows he will get some freedom (when I'm darn good and ready), he's getting much better.
If you have multiple dogs this scenario might need to be repeated for the individuals who need it .... which perhaps not all of your dogs do. Some dogs are content to be crated for lengthy periods of time while others are less inclined to be happy in crates. I see nothing wrong with insisting your dog learn not to fuss as long as you are meeting his needs for physical and mental stimulation, whatever that takes. (Interactive toys are good if the dog likes them and won't just destroy them, which my dogs will do.) I try not to assume that a dog who is fussing is just being a brat. While perhaps some are, others might be trying to tell you that they need a bit more stimulation. Obviously, this is a lot easier to achieve when a pup is young and you can tire them out more easily, or when a dog is older and is more inclined to just want to snooze in a comfortable spot. However, your boy is right in the prime of life and is probably feeling a bit cooped up.
The other thing you might try (especially when you just want to watch TV in peace) is to teach Koda to go to his own personal "place" and lay down. The other dogs would probably have to be crated or they would need to be capable of going to their own "place" too. That is what we do every evening; each dog must go to his/her own special "place" and down-stay. As long as they do this and settle they can be out of their crates.
I'll be interested to see what others say, but it strikes me as not being a good idea to do anything really adverse to a crated dog. I mean, you want your dog to be OK with crate confinement, then you spray them in the face or shock them when they are crated? I dunno. Maybe I'm wrong, but I think that would work against me in the long run. Have you tried covering his crate with a sheet? Sometimes you can "turn out the lights" so to speak, to help them settle. Others say it helps to put their crate in a room where they can't see you (or the other dogs), but my dog interprets that as punishment .... which I suppose it is, but unless you wait until they start to whine, then remove them from their crate and put them (in a crate) in another room, I'd have to question if they really "get" what they are being punished for?
Gee, sorry this was so long, but as you can see, I've struggled with this issue too! And yes, I've ignored him ... for days on end, to no avail. Giving him short breaks has been the best solution for us so far!
Cher
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Cheryl Zovich ]
#148457 - 07/15/2007 02:59 PM |
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I give Koda breaks and even let him roam around the back yard with me when I'm watering my plants or working in the yard. I also just let him be alone back there away from the other dogs at times. Koda whines when he can't be next to my husband. Koda gets extra exercise since he and I are on a weight loss 'program' and we also play with a ball or frisbee for about an hour each day. This is after he has cooled down from the walk. While on a walk this morning at a popular cycle trail I met a dog trainer who trains dogs for the department of agriculture here in Orlando. I discussed Koda's seperation anxiety issues and one of things the guy said was that dogs with high drive have SA more than other dogs.We also discussed a holistic approach to giving Koda a calming medication along with behavior modification. He gave me his phone number if I wanted to talk to him further about this.
My husband has been ignoring Koda except for letting Koda out to do his business. I think my husband has to be this way until Koda learns that the humans in this house are the pack leaders. Koda has always tried to dominate my husband and my husband 'gave in' thinking that petting Koda for no reason and laying on the floor with him was their way of bonding.
Sandra Johnson |
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: sandra faye johnson ]
#148461 - 07/15/2007 03:20 PM |
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On a very basic level, I've found that rewarding SA is the fastest route to perpetuating it.
I am sure you are not consciously rewarding SA, but is there any chance that he gets attention (soothing talk, a pat) when he exhibits SA behavior?
Also, rewarding for desired behavior (such as your husband stopping to give a pat and a nice word when the dog is actually silent and calm) might be effective, rather than completely ignoring the dog.
Just mentioning what I have done. I'm sure there are many methods for dealing with SA.
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#148463 - 07/15/2007 03:28 PM |
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Oh, and VERY important:
Motivational training for short intervals throughout the day is great for SA.
Tires out the mind, builds confidence, creates healthy bond.....
Edit: These aren't empty words that I've read somewhere ; I've successfully "treated" two adoptees of my own who had SA (one really bad, including screaming when left in the house) with the steps I've outlined here.
Reward wanted behavior, even if it seems like completely innocuous behavior* (because it's "normal"); be very careful not to reward SA behavior, which almost everyone has a instinct to do, with petting and soothing; frequent upbeat training sessions throughout the day.
*meaning looking for any instance of wanted behavior and going out of my way to reward it
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Connie Sutherland ]
#148488 - 07/15/2007 09:11 PM |
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Connie,
I can't speak for Sandra, but my dog doesn't seem to have SA. If I crate him and leave the house (to run errands, go to the barn or do some outside chore that requires my undivided attention) he's perfectly fine. Not a single peep. However, the minute I come in he starts whining and can't shut up to save his soul. Trust me, he can whine forever. Hours and hours, but only if he's crated and I'm somewhere in the house. This strikes me more as defiant, bratty behavior than anxiety. The weird thing is that he's not spoiled and he's not particularly Velcro; it's not like he's bummed because he can't be by my side. (I do have one like that, but she doesn't make a peep) He's the only dog I've ever owned who's done this since he was very young. All the other dogs I've owned simply outgrew or abandoned this sort of nonsense when they didn't get their way.
When this boy was young he was conf. shown. I used to put him in his crate, walk away and he never made a fuss or peep. So why the big stink at home? I never cave to it, though I've done a few things to try to make him more crate content, like give him a stuffed Kong or something good to chew on. (Hard to find something that isn't too messy and lasts more than ten mintes with a power chewer) Unfortunately, that became an issue and he started to yip, whine and carry on if he didn't get a treat every single time he had to crate up. I'm not talking about a treat for going into his crate, but a treat to help make being in the crate a more "enjoyable experience." Basically, that idea backfired. Ditto with rewarding good behavior ... if he's quiet and you praise or treat him to "reward" it, there's a good chance you will simply start a whole new cycle of whining!
He knows "Knock it off" and will shut up for ... oh, maybe all of five minutes if I really threaten him within an inch of his life. But gee, that's such a pleasant way to live! (And I'm sure my neighbors are going to report me to the SPCA some day: "But officer, I know I heard her say she's "gonna break every bone in his body" if he doesn't stop whining!) Putting him in the garage or basement won't solve the problem because he doesn't whine or yip if I isolate him there. He only whines when he's crated in the main part of the house when I'm home. (If I'm in the basement and he's crated upstairs then sometimes he'll carry on for a bit, but he's not nearly as persistent as he is when we are both on the same floor of the house) It's the opposite of SA: instead of out of sight, out of mind, if I"m in sight then he's out of his mind!
*Sigh*
I do try to make sure he's had plenty of exercise and mental stimulation prior to crating, but sometimes even that doesn't help. Some nights he is over-tired and goes into hyper drive: he'll get the zoomies and literally fight sleep! It can be pretty entertaining to watch but sort of pathetic.
Any suggestions?
Cher
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Cheryl Zovich ]
#148490 - 07/15/2007 09:54 PM |
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Yes, it was Sandra who mentioned SA.
How old is he?
How is he when he is actually in the same room (in the crate) with you?
BTW, something is rewarding such a persistent behavior. I think I would do a "power walk" and then a short training session one morning, then crate him and take notes on the whining routine..... where you are, what you are doing, etc., when he does it -- and how you react (if you do).
Don't shoot the messenger, but the idea here is not so much to assess his behavior as it is to assess yours. How are you (or whoever) rewarding the whining? You said it yourself, that he does this only when he knows you are around to hear it....
("Knock it off," for example, isn't ignoring it. If he wants to hear "knock it off" and has learned that you will eventually say it, then all he does is up the ante, knowing that you will eventually say it. That's a silly example, but you see what I mean.....)
The funny thing is (and I'm as guilty as anyone, or more so) that we did train the dog to do what the dog is doing. At the very least, we did NOT train the dog to do what we want him to be doing instead.
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Re: Whining in the crate
[Re: Cheryl Zovich ]
#148492 - 07/15/2007 10:05 PM |
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Ditto with rewarding good behavior ... if he's quiet and you praise or treat him to "reward" it, there's a good chance you will simply start a whole new cycle of whining!
Timing timing timing........ timing. Ed mentions in a few articles and videos that the difference between fair and good training is often timing.
Reward at the right moment and STOP, turn away, ignore if the unwanted behavior starts. If you are 100% consistent, and if your timing is impeccable, then there will be a lightbulb moment.
I'll bet something confused him about the reward for wanted behavior -- it wasn't done at the right moment, most likely, and unwanted behavior had started (or was even being contemplated :grin when he was rewarded. I guess it's possible too that the praise was too excited, but I honestly see timing and consistency as the big culprits almost all the time.
Example: I have a dog who wanted to go under a gate in the yard. As stupid as it sounded and felt, I had to remember, when I was in the middle of a low, stern "no-o-o," to INSTANTLY switch to the higher-voiced marker "yes" the second he changed his mind, halfway under the gate, and started to wiggle back in.
Timing.
Carrying on with a correction when the dog starts a different behavior, or vice versa (with reward) is completely confusing. I think that's why markers were "invented:" so there could be an exact instant when you say "THIS is the wanted behavior."
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