First off I should let everyone know that I am BRAND NEW to this board and this will be my first attempt utilizing Leerburg techniques. I have ordered the Basic Obedience DVD and the Dominant dog collar (I already own a prong collar). I purchased these items so that I could attempt to re-establish my dogs rank within our "pack". I have a 4 year old spayed Border Collie who has been displaying what I now realize are some serious dominance behaviors. I was under the impression she was really soft and submissive but boy was I wrong! We recently lost our 2 older dogs due to natural causes and now she believes she is not only top (and only) dog, but also ranks above myself, husband and 2 children. I have begun taking steps to re-establish her rank while waiting for my stuff to arrive, such as 100% control over her and her environment. She has been kicked out of the masterbedroom (which she thought she owned) and put in the dining room in her crate only allowed out on leash for potty and short training lessons. My biggest question is how to respond to her growling in the crate? She is a MAJOR growler which is the main issue I want to correct and I can respond immediatly when she is on leash with her new collar, but how will I deal with it when she is crated and I can't get to her soon enough to make the correction? Does that make sense? When the kids, or even myself pass by her crate, or even come in the same room the crate is in sometimes she will start the rolling over, baring her teeth and growling. The kids will quickly leave the room or the area in front of her crate and I am afraid she is learning to control their (the childrens')actions with the growling in the crate. Otherwise she is quiet and will readily go into her crate without trouble and there is no true pattern to her behavior. She is VERY possesive of her space and until she understands that the entire house is not hers to run how will I address this? I hope this makes sense. I can give some more background on the dog and her behaviors if it would be more helpful in offering advise. She is a well trained sport dog participating in herding and agility events since she was young so she is familiar with training and responding to my commands - which she is quick with when we are "working" together, but this household behavior has got to end! I am beginning to realize that she isn't afraid of the children (which she has no true cause to be) but rather just constantly re asserting herself as pack leader of the entire family. Thanks so much for any advice or suggestion that you may be able to offer and again, I apologize if this post is all over the place. I am just excited to think we can probably fix this problem instead of euthinize the dog as I certainly wouldn't want to pass my problem on!
Kris Karney
ReddogsRbetter@hotmail.com

While I can't offer any help to your problem, you will get better responses if you use pargraphs. Help's people more easily read the post.

You have come to the right place and will get the help you need but first things first. You must be consistent & fair with your corrections and protocol. Your family must also be consistent. They must all leave her alone until YOU have a handle on things. If you are eager to do this it can be enjoyable watching your dog improve. If not, this will be a chore.

1: I would remove the crate from the dining room. She should not be allowed in the dining room when you are eating and this sounds like a high traffic area. When your kids go by and show fear it will reinforce her aggression. Put her in a low traffic room like the laundry or something.

2: When she is in the crate you could cover it with a blanket or towel so she'll feel more secure.

3: When out of the crate YOU have a leash on her at all times without fail. Any sign of a growl initiates a correction. This part can be tricky because she could turn on you for correcting her so you have to be safe. Use a muzzle at first if you need to.

4: Feed in a safe place. If she is already aggressive in the crate this could be a problem for feeding in the crate. I don't correct my dog when food is down and he's eating. This seemed to make him protect his food even more. I also do not put the food down with him right there or let him see me pick the dish up. After about 10-20 minutes I relocate him to remove the dish and he doesn't see it again until next time. This way the only time he see's me with his dish is when I'm giving, not taking.

5: Exercise! Gotta have it but on a leash or electric collar. Again, giving a correction for aggression with an e-collar could turn bad if someone is to close to the dog during the correction. With the absence of the other dogs I'd bet your girl gets way less exercise than before.

6: Don't let her respond to noises ets. by barking or otherwise unless you direct it. If she does, give an adequate correction to stop the response and put her in a sit or down.

7: She is last for everything. She needs to see the family eat and finish before she gets fed. Even if it's a few crackers or piece of cheese.

8: No furniture period unless it has plastic walls and a metal gate and room for one

9: Don't get discouraged if someone seems a bit grouchy toward you on these forumns. It happens on every one I've used but this one has the most knowledgable people I've seen.

Welcome to Leerburg and I hope we are able to help you in a way you will be able to transfer this information to your dog and improve your scenario.

DZ

Eric,

Thank you so much for your helpfulness! I apologize if my original post was long winded. I am SO pleased with how things are going even after 2 short days! At first I felt guilty about everyone ignoring her and being so aloof towards her, but then I have come to realize how PEACEFUL this house has been!!! We aren't all running around trying to avoid the growling beast - YIKES how embarrising it is to realize how bad I had let it get!

I am beginning to think I may need an e-collar for the crate issues. Just this morning she was quiet as a mouse while the kids played in the room adjacent to her and as soon as I went out in the garage my daughter informed me that she began growling as soon as the door to the garage closed. The kids activity and activity level had not changed, so I assume she realized I was gone and started acting up again. I think this would be an easy situation to set her up with and utilize an e-collar with. Overall this is an improvement (although small) as even a few days ago she would of growled constantly whether I was in the area or not... small steps right!?!!?

So here is another question should anyone want to take a stab at...we are going to our regular training class next week. I am still new to the club so I don't allow any or a lot of socializing with the other dogs since I don't know them very well. They are a very "soft" club and I would like my dog to wear her the dominance collar so I can correct her for inappropriate growling at the other dogs. It is very quiet low growling I can feel it before I can hear it, but it is most often unneccessary - the other dogs are not challenging her or in her space. I am concerned about the response I will get from the other participants as they often disregard their dogs behaviors. Anyone have any expierence or thoughts on the potential negative reaction I am going to receive? Yes, I realize I am setting myself up for some criticism, but on the other hand I can't let the behavior continue can I???

Thanks again in advance,

Kris Karney
ReddogsRbetter@hotmail.com

Hi Kris
I think you are on the right track now. However, there is one thing that may not have been made very clear. Eric said that "When your kids go by and show fear it will reinforce her aggression". This is exactly right. What he means is that your dog has learned that growling makes the threat go away. The threat may be fear of pain, harassment, or simply that she doesn't want to be moved because she thinks she runs the joint. Reguardless, she has learned to control situations by growling. This is the same concept we use to teach our dogs to bark at the helper or at the door etc. Example, if the decoy runs or turns away when the dog barks, the dog wins. They learn to control the game by barking. Basically, you want to do the exact opposite.

So here's the deal. Every time she growls in the crate, you (or the kids) can't walk away. She needs to learn that growling no longer controls the situation and only get her a correction.

As far as the training goes, correct the heck out of her when she growls. Those other people don't have to live around her, you do.

I used to belong to a dog training club in MD. Their rule was flat collars and 6 foot leash ONLY. No pinch, choke, slip of any kind. Not to mention the average dog owner more than likely see's the methods used at Leerburg as barbaric and abusive. This is the mentallity of those who do not understand pack structure and how important it is for you to be alpha. Their dogs are like one of their children, eat at (or under) the table while the family eats, sleeps on the bed at night, gets pet whenever it nudges it's way in (because it's so cute to see the nose under your arm) etc. They may have dogs you can do this with, we do not!

Our world with dogs is so different, they would have euthenized our dogs a long time ago because they are to aggressive and not fit for keeping. For them, this is true but for others who have a bit more knowledge, this is do-able.

At this point I'd say NEVER trust your dog again around your kids and I mean EVER until they are strong enough, educated enough and dedicated enough to handle the dog in the same manner as you or your husband. Too dangerous.

Get the dominant dog DVD, if you haven't already and it will teach you most everything you need to know. Train daily, exercise daily, control your dog 100%, and stay calm when working her. Never lose your cool with her or around her. When you come home, ignore her wanting to come out until she stops.

Sorry, I gotta go right now! I'll catch up with you later.

DZ

Sorry about that.

When you come home and she's begging to be let out, you act like she's not even there until a few minutes after she stops.

If she's obedience trained, never allow her to not obey. This is where the family can be a real hinderance. Little Johnny says "come here dog" and the dog ignores him. Well little Johnny has no way to reinforce it so little Johnny needs to understand he is not to command the dog. Same with visitors. My mom has taken notes from me a read books and thinks her dog listens well. She has to call the dog several times before it decides to obey and that's not good obedience.

Kepp pluggin away. We're always here to help.

DZ

 Quote: kris karney

They are a very "soft" club and I would like my dog to wear her the dominance collar so I can correct her for inappropriate growling at the other dogs. I am concerned about the response I will get from the other participants as they often disregard their dogs behaviors. Anyone have any expierence or thoughts on the potential negative reaction I am going to receive? Yes, I realize I am setting myself up for some criticism, but on the other hand I can't let the behavior continue can I???

Been there, done that! Here's what I discovered. Yes, you will freak a few people out. I would call the trainer ahead of time and tell her what you plan to do. (Or go early and let her know) Don't ask if it's OK to do this (it's your dog and you have the right to select the training method that best suits your dog), just tell her what your response will be when/if your dog acts out. If she can't handle your using this technique in her class then let her figure out how to tell you why. (And refund your money right then and there if you can't continue.) Don't give her a platform to oppose your methods by asking if it's OK if you do this, just tell her (read as: forewarn her) and let her have the next move. Remember: you are not asking for approval to train your dog using this method, you are simply asking for permission to use this method in her class!

As for the horrified looks you'll get .... be ready and get over it quickly. Sometimes it helps if you simply say quietly, "dog-aggressive dog" and let it go at that. Some people will nod and understand, others will stay horrified and keep their distance from you. (And it's not always fear, but disgust that creates the distance.) That said, most people with half a brain in their head will be grateful that you have control of the situation, even if it doesn't look pretty.

If the instructor offers a better alternative then by all means keep an open mind and maybe even try it, but if you decide your method is better then stick to your guns ... even if it means finding another class and instructor!

Cher

 Quote: Cheryl Zovich

Don't ask if it's OK to do this (it's your dog and you have the right to select the training method that best suits your dog

You also have the right to find a different class that is not such a soft class. You join the class, you are pretty much agreeing to follow their rules and trying to impose something as intense as the DD collar, whether they like it or not, is not exactly a good way to improve your situation in the class. After all, this is what you're trying to do, right? No-one appreciates bullying and I'd bet this is how it would be taken. You'd create more problems than solutions.

I would speak with the instructor and explain you paid for training which is very difficult when you have to deal with other dogs who are not controlled. It is the instructors job to control the class and the participants job to control their dogs. If the instructor is not willing to control the class, then I would demand a refund and find another class.

I wouldn't use a dominant dog collar in a common training class, whether they like it or not, especially when you already know it's a soft class. Unless you enjoy conflict but then this wouldn't help train your dog much.

Hi everyone,

First off, thank you SOOOO much for all of your advice and for responding. I am still up in the air about the dog class. I have put a call into the instructor and I plan on telling her what I am doing so their won't be suprise (at least not from her) and base my final decision off of her reaction during the conversation. I am going to have to wait till next week, or mid week regardless as I am still anxiously awaiting my collar and DVD's to show up ! Kicking myself today for not paying the extra for overnighting it ;-)! Regardless, we are having a tough day around her this morning. We had been doing so well with just regainging complete control of her environment and a stricter use of her prong collar, but this morning she apparenlty woke up on the wrong side of the bed!!!

The growling has restarted today in the kennel when the kids are around. They were (are) not bothering her, matter of fact they barely think twice about her since she has been so unpleasant for them for so long. The kids were playing cars in the room next to where she is kept, when I overheard the growling 2 rooms away. Which has been ALMOST non existant in the last week. The kids were going to move their activity and I told them no.. they needed to stay where they were and continue. There was absolutely nothing threating happening to or near the dog, or the kids would have been scolded. I decided to take the dog out of her crate on leash & prong and make her stay right with me while I was busy doing house stuff as I can't do much but verbal correction while she is in the crate. Well... needless to say the growling continued, got worse when the kids would come by regardless of the correction. Trust me, I was correcting her, my hands still hurt from the leather. It would stop for a moment, she would hear the kids talk or hear / see them walking around and it would start again. Even worse when I was correcting her she would begin to growl at me. As far as corretions, I was going back and forth between the prong collar and grabbing her cheeks and saying no to her face (calm, but forcefully). I would take her by her cheeks when it was a low growl, and use her prong and sharp no when it was louder. This were all the same things that I had been doing. I felt I couldn't put her back in her crate until I had regained some control over her or I thought she might think she "won".. ie .. growling at mom got her put away safely in her crate where she could continue to growl at will... Did I do the right thing? Finally after a wonderful 10 minutes she was finally quiet enough I felt I could put her away. I covered the crate and had to scold her twice verbally for growling afterwards. I made a point of not leaving the area until she was quiet.. but good lord!!!!

Regardless I am feeling frustrated. Is this worth it???? Will she ever just be a nice house dog? Sorry, just our 2 other dogs that recently passed away were wonderful companions that understood their place in "our pack". Since their passing this dog has been highlighted and not over enjoyable. FANTASTIC working dog, crappy family dog! My daughter celebrated her birthday over the weekend and made a wish on her birthday cake that we could "have a really nice dog that we can pet and play with". How sad is that!

Thanks again for your thoughts!

Kris Karney
ReddogsRbetter@hotmail.com