I've got a little pound mutt -- mixture of a bunch of sheepherding breeds. She apparently had been abused because when I got her a few years ago she was frightened of almost everything, particularly men. I trained her with the help of a Dogtra, set at the lowest level. Now I use it only when she's learning a new command. As soon as she learns to (come, sit, stand, lie down...). that's it for the Dogtra. She's now a wonderfully obedient, sociable little mutt and I decided to find someone to teach her sheepherding. I observed one trainer who, in the course of the training, threw the wand atthe mildly misbehaving pupil (the dog didn't come as soon as she called). I asked the trainer if that was standard operating procedure. She said you have to show the dog who's boss and she didn't aim at the dog (although I don't know how the dog knew that). When I asked if I could use the Dogtra, she said Certainly Not -- that's a gimmick. Has anyone had any experience with sheepherding? Is what she says correct?

I asked about using an e collar when I was doing herding. The answer I got was that they don't use them because if you throw something the dog will know it came from you. The dog may not know that it's you controling the e collar. The reasoning was that if the dog knows the correction comes from you, then the dog will think that you can reach them wherever they are. The instructor did say he used e collars for dogs that had a tendency to run away and that was the only time he used them. I'm sure there are different opinions on this, but that's the answer I got from my instructor.

We used a rake or a long bamboo stick initially to keep our dog from gripping the sheep. We have a friend who is using a e-collar with her GSD as he didn't stop gripping and even a shepherd's crook over the noggin didn't stop him he was so sheep driven. It was only the e-collar that corrected him from his gripping issues.

I'm sure there are as many opinions as there is handlers concerning this, but if you have a dog that responds well to the e-collar with the basic commands especially come and down . My opinion would be use it, as already your dog knows what it means. The sheep are a HUGE distraction and you'll save lot's of time in training doing so.

The training will progress once you can get the dog to chill out around the sheep. Once the dog figures that downs and the other commands get her what she/he wants (the sheep) the rest is gravy.

Big Caveat - I am not a trainer, but...
I have seen many sheep dogs actually working and it seems to me that the herders use whistles and hand signals to direct their dogs from long distance. (Kinda like hunters direct their bird dogs)
Wouldn't a certain whistle, or command, combined with the Ecollar let your dog know that it was you giving the correction? I am probably wrong, but it just seems logical to me.

The only thing I'd be careful of using an e-collar is that you don't want to kill your dogs desire to work. If your dog is keen on working, this shouldn't be a problem, but it is something to be careful of as you can easily kill the drive in a sensitive dog.

ETA, I'm not sure about combining the whistle with the correction. You want your dog to know what the command means before you use it. You usually go about teaching command by naming the correct behavior your dog is showing. Correction are more of a long distance "knock it off" as you prevent behavior that would be detrimental to the sheep (chasing, diving in and gripping, or ignoring you). You usually do more correcting when you start out because you've got a young, excited dog with major distractions. Those dogs don't know the commands yet, and ones that they do know (like lie down) almost have to be re-taught because you're using them in a whole different context.

I just watched an episode of The Dog Whisperer and he took a Flanders Bouvier to a sheep ranch along with the dog's owners. The ranch is for training dogs to herd sheep and the Bouvier at first, nipped a sheep on the rear. The trainer used a crook to correct the dog and that was the only time he had to use it. That dog corraled those sheep like he had been doing it his entire life. I have never seen nor heard of a ranch that trains dogs to herd but I guess dogs have to learn somehow!

Maybe Shelley J.A. Fritzke could help you also. Hopefully she'll see this thread. She's one of the forum members here. Her website, in case you're interested, is:
http://tehillahgermanshepherds.com/

Quote from Mara "You usually go about teaching command by naming the correct behavior your dog is showing. Correction are more of a long distance "knock it off" as you prevent behavior that would be detrimental to the sheep (chasing, diving in and gripping, or ignoring you). "EndQuote
Yes, I didn't say it well, but that's what I meant.
There must first be a signal for "Knock it off", for gripping or biting the sheep, or incorrect actions.
Once the dog knows the signal/sound for that, it could be reinforced with an Ecollar if needed, and the dog would know exactly where the correction was coming from.

IMO with the 2 months of weekend of weekend herding we have done 'Knock it off' is the first 'action' that needs to be enforced well at least it was with my Mal .. she is pretty intensely driven over the sheep.

As for the 'down' and other basic commands, the sheep while yes are a major distraction 'down' is still 'down' no matter what distraction is there. Being in the field with the sheep shouldn't be any different from being in a training ring or having a squirrel run across the road when it comes to listening to the handler. It's a different context but the wanted/trained behaviour is still the same.

Any real super hard correction doesn't matter if it comes from an e-collar, prong or a shepherds crook will/could deflate a dog's drive. I witnessed it myself with my own dog. She got pronged while on the long line. We were trying to redirect her with the crook and she wouldn't listen and was fighting the crook. She got pronged hard and then went right into "I give up" mode. Took her a couple minutes before she wanted to ware the sheep again, though she was a lot more mellow after. She is now realizing that mellow behaviour around the sheep gets her the reward of moving the sheep.

Okay, got it! If the dog was used to an e-collar, and it was used right, than a e-collar correction in conjunction with something the dog understood, it would probably work. I don't think I'd use one for the first few lessons as you risk teaching the dog that herding is a no-no if you've got a sensitive dog.

I'm talking from a Border Collie perspective - fairly sensitive, smart, and extremely driven when it comes to sheep. Often what works best for teaching them is a patient handler who can handle and "read" livestock and know how and when to put correct "pressure" on the dog, using both their body language and the livestock. When starting dogs, the dog is usually placed on a long line and worked in a round pen so you can catch and semi-control the dog without killing the drive to work, and also so the trainer can control the situation. The sheep should also be "dog-broke" so you can set the dog up for success. If you do that, there should be no reason for an e-collar to start with.

After your dog advances beyond this point (out of the round pen into a larger field) then you come to the point where you may need some long distance corrections. By this time they understand the basics - sides, a stop, a walk up - in context with sheep work, so you can correct them for not responding to a command they understand. Then you just have to get a feel for what type of a correction your dog needs.

I do have to say that if I thought something might be helpful with my dog, I'd at least want to be working with a trainer who would be willing to listen to my point of view. They don't have to agree, but they should be able to explain good clear reason why not, and have proven productive results with the method they use.

ETA - most of my post was directed to the OP.