Hi all, I've squeaked similar questions as this into previous threads, but I'd like to ask this as a whole separate issue this time, mostly because some recent incidents have made me think about it again...

Oscar is our 2.5 year old male Rhodesian Ridgeback. He's always been fairly dominant, and hard, but for the most part friendly with most all other dogs. When he matured, he started to not so much like intact males that were as big as him (smaller, and they weren't a threat, bigger, and he's smart enough to know which battles he shouldn't start). On the FEW occasions that he's had contact with an adult intact male (not many around here - 2 were Goldens), there is only an initial 2 second sniff before he lashes out, in quite a nasty way. He's always been on leash or collar in hand for this, and corrected immediately, so no fights - and the sad thing is that the other dogs are usually really sweet and end up looking at him like, "what in GOD'S name is YOUR problem". He was neutered at 2, BTW, and this behavior has not changed at all (not that I was expecting it to, as the behavior was established beforehand...)

A week ago we met up with a 10 month old male lab that he played AMAZINGLY well with for like 30 minutes - only as we left did I learn he was INTACT!! I'm assuming he wasn't old enough to elicit the wrath of Oscar's hatred for intact males?? But it had me wondering if it's all just in the right combination of temperment (the lab was SUPER submissive - other intact males have all been upstanding and proud, but not aggressive).

Obviously, we are very careful about who he plays with and remove him immediately if an intact male enters the scene - there have NEVER been fights - but I'm wondering about our plans to get another puppy in the future. If we got a male and decided to leave it intact (at LEAST till 2 or 3), would this just be a recipe for disaster and constant separation, or is there any way/hope that he could learn not to distrust another intact male IF he were a "member of the pack", after having correctly established the new guy as a proper part of the family? If it is partly a personality/temperment issue, is there a chance we could finding the RIGHT intact male puppy for him to live with? And then just work diligently to get Oscar to respect him? I know, hard to tell how they'll mature from a pup... (the new addition would be a brand new puppy that would grow up with Oscar, not an adult). OR am I a complete fool for even considering it - Oscar hates intact males, period. I WOULDN'T want to have to keep them separated at all times if it doesn't work out...

Anyone here attempted such a thing with a male like this?

I know this behavior isn't uncommon for males, and some females for that matter, meeting males outside their "pack", I'm just wondering if it would be totally impossible to EXPAND our male "pack" with a dog like this already on board...

Many thanks for any opinions - go ahead and call me a fool if it's waranted , I'm willing to work at this if it's possible, but I don't want to set myself up for failure.

~Natalya

Anyone willing and/or able to comment on this? Sorry it's so long...

~Natalya

Well, alright...I'll give it a go. Before I do...know that I don't have any practical experience doing what you're describing so I will tell you what are only my thoughts and guesses...which could well be wrong. I have worked with many a dog-aggressive dog(my own included) on being able to ignore other dogs. I have never worked on introducing a new dog into one with a mature dog-aggressive dog already established within the house.

First thing: What you're describing is a hypothetical situation. So it it hypothetically possible that you could pick the perfect pup and have things go smoothly? Yes. Almost anything's possible.

However, there are so many variables involved that I don't think anyone can or should say exactly what will happen. I mean, if you brought a mature dog into the household...one that you could test before purchasing...well, maybe. But you just never know with dogs. And with puppies, the future is even less clear. Sure there are genetics to consider, and temperament tests and training, and slow introductions and all of that, but none of that will assure you 100% that there will be harmony. There will always be the risk that you will have to seperate your two dogs for good at some point.

If you do want to try it, you'd be increasing the odds in your favor if you got a female pup. But again, no assurances there, either.

Carbon does not tolerate other dogs well. Maybe 1 out of 100 dogs are okay to him. And those dogs are highly submissive. But even then, he still wants to posture all the time and demand submission frequently. So I make myself content with the fact that I can keep him from actively trying to eat other dogs near him. The only dog he gets along with is the 3 year old neutered Corgi who was already in the household when we brought Carbon home at 8 weeks (but then again, who doesn't get along with Corgis! ).

Another thing...some dogs act all tough and fierce when they are being restrained...by hand or by leash. So maybe your dog would be okay in an open yard with a dropped leash for the first meeting (after much socialization without actual contact). But that's a dangerous idea to test, you know?

So, the short answer to your question (based only on my thoughts and not experiences) is: Maybe. Maybe not. Helpful, aren't I? I just don't see how it could happen risk-free. Maybe Jenni could help you; I understand she has a few dog-aggressive dogs in her care...

Thanks so much Amber! I was hoping Jenni would throw in her pennies as well, Carol too, though I'm quite certain Jenni's dogs live primarily separated from each other... not an option I think I could live with.

And just to clarify, I wouldn't actually describe Oscar as dog aggressive... the questions I'm interested in discussing are in relation to male dogs, and INTACT males specifically. When we're out and about, it is intact males only that get such a nasty response from him - neutered males are OK, and females are just PEACHY!Oscar has actually been asking me for a girlfriend for quite some time and getting a female pup would probably be quite easy (not that I'd let my guard down ). If I didn't have such a love for males (general appearance, personality, etc.), I wouldn't even be considering this - I'd just go get a little girl!

*And you're totally right, Corgis are downright agreeable!

~Natalya

I'll shoot!

My male actually does get along (read ignore) with most dogs, but on occasion, and it usually turns out to be an intact and dominant male, he will see a dog from 50 yards out and decide that it is going to die.

But he usually gets along fine with puppies of all sexes. My brother bought a nice little APBT male pup about eighteen months ago. He had no plans to alter the dog anytime soon, and we are often at the family BBQs together; so we decided that they better be buds. We got them together at least once a week. They have always been gotten along great.

I would like to say that the constant exposure and expectations gave them a chance to bond enough to not be punks. Will it always be this way? I don't know. We watch them close. But it looks good!

BTW his male, even as young as he is, does not get along with ANY other dogs. He is great with any human he has ever met though...

From my limited experience, they may not end up best friends, but If Oscar learns that this new pup is part of his pack, and you keep the baby under control (i.e. crates for both), and not allow him to absolutely pester Oscar...

Great input Jessica - sounds like you have sort of a similar situation, the dogs aren't living FULL TIME with each other, but still... is your handsome boy neutered as well?

I have had one person tell me that her intact male was completely fine and gentle with their new male pup until the pup turned a year old (hit maturity) and then the older male turned on him and things were never the same .... she ended up neutering the younger male and things went back to normal. I'd assume that at 18 months, your brother's APBT is plenty mature and things will most likely stay hunky dorey, as long as they keep getting lots of socialization with each other.

Your comments about both dogs getting along, after your hard work and diligent, good exposure, is encouraging - especially if the APBT is very dog aggressive usually. Guess it sort of supports the happy idea that if raised well together, even dogs who don't like other dogs can learn to get along as part of a pack...

I have plenty of time to think this over, but Thank you!

~Natalya

Thanks, nope, none of the dogs are altered.

Quinn has little patience for dogs that think they can dominate him. Little dogs, and pups he looks at them with a look of "are you serious?" but over 50lbs, it's on! We have been working on that with him for a while, and we have come far. The e-collar has played a role as well.

And if it helps, when we go on trips, either of us, we act as doggie sitters for each other. All have gotten along great. We just don't do anything stupid like leave toys around or feeding together.

I would not be discouraged. Based on many of your previous post, you know what's going on. You have a DA dog and can take the steps to prevent or at least prepare for the future. With all of the people on this board with dogs of strong temperment getting all of these puppies...

Well I know that you can do it when you are ready!

 Quote: amber morgan

. Maybe Jenni could help you; I understand she has a few dog-aggressive dogs in her care...

 Quote: natalya zahn

I was hoping Jenni would throw in her pennies as well, Carol too, though I'm quite certain Jenni's dogs live primarily separated from each other... not an option I think I could live with.

Did you guys miss me?

On dog-aggression...my situation is as follows:
Mia (APBT) is not dog-aggressive. Meaning she is absolutely trustworthy around Widget and Xander (Czech pup, 7mos). Caleb is another story. If he behaves himself, they're ok, but if he's a jacka$$( pretty good odds, lol) they are gonna have a brawl (well, they're not, but they'll want to) He tends to get rough during play, and that kind of awakens her APBT heritage...so she gets rougher, he gets mad (typical male-can dish it out but can't take it ) and then it goes from bad to worse. I am not physically capable of separating a 50lb Pit Bull and a 90something GSD in a real fight, so I don't chance it.

So, yes, my dogs are separated much of the time, but really are ok w/supervision, like in the house. Caleb is very dominant, but not techincally dog-aggressive. I say techincally because he will not have a problem with a random dog we see out; he only has a problem with them if they're obnoxious, try to dominate him overtly, or do something out-of-line on "his" property. He's gotten in a couple minor scraps, but I think of dog-aggressive as a dog who just doesn't like other dogs and will fight without provocation.

He does seem to have a problem with neutered males, however, getting back to Natalya's original question. Honestly, I don't know what the best answer is b/c Oscar's already neutered. Maybe you'll be fine w/a younger intact male, but Caleb tends to not tolerate them well. It seems that he sees them as weak or just not-quite-right. It could be their behavior as a result of being neutered or it could be physiological...I dunno. I have had several neutered fosters, and they were more dog-aggressive than any intact dog I've ever had. I think it definitely affects their behavior, especially if they were neutered early. It seems that they're almost insecure (only word I can think of; dogs are not really insecure in the human sense)and tend to go on the offensive if an intact male is around.

Sorry to write a book, but I will close by saying that while my dogs don't necessarily all "like" each other, they get along under supervision because I make them. One problem I have with all the "pack" talk lately (thank you Cesar) is that I don't really think dogs are pack animals anymore. I don't really care if they think they are. I don't worry about rank or any of those other things that people go crazy with trying to work out an maintain. I don't care who they think is alpha among themselves so long as they all know that I am in charge, and they do. I am not a dog, and am not part of their "pack". I am a human, and they are my dogs, and they will eat when I feed them...regardless of who I decide to feed first. I really don't have any of the issues that people complain about with multiple dogs. But before I get too cocky...I will have 7 this weekend, so I'll let you know how that goes.

Jenni - thank you, I really appreciate your input.

I honestly wouldn't describe Oscar as dog aggressive either - he has always been dominant but won't pick a fight for fight's sake - he is fine with nearly every dog he meets - it's just the intact males that cause the unprovoked aggression. And then, small breed intact dogs don't seem to bother him... I do think he has become somewhat less "self assured" since being neutered , but what's done is done and I'm not sure this issue with the intact male aggression is actually any different - he's doing what he's always done since he matured.

I like what you had to say about packs and leadership as well. All the modern thought put into household "pack structure" and understanding your dog's behavior by this type of model still doesn't make US dogs as the end of the day, and it doesn't put our dogs back into some type of "wild" situation. Our dogs live in a world of people and actually DO have to learn to be something different than their wild cousins if they hope to live long and succesful lives with their humans. Most important adjustment is that they learn to accept a 2 legged, opposable thumb weilding, large-brained human as their leader and God of all Gods at all times and under all circumstances...

May I ask, you said your dogs might not "like" each other, but they tolerate and get along under your watch - do you think this places undue stress on them? Your situation is very different than mine, I'm only looking to increase the family by ONE dog, and in relation to canine chemistry, I have only the choice of getting a female (which, chances are, Oscar would be SMITTEN with) or getting a male (which he could easily "dislike" from day one and only TOLERATE in my presence, maybe not, but maybe). Would it be "kinder" of me to just get a female so that he isn't fighting the urge to FIGHT all the time with a male (if it actually worked out that way)?
Or is this a human projection of emotion? He *might* learn to tolerate a male just fine, but the chances for relative "happiness" or contentment are better with a female...

~Natalya

 Quote: natalya zahn

May I ask, you said your dogs might not "like" each other, but they tolerate and get along under your watch - do you think this places undue stress on them? Your situation is very different than mine, I'm only looking to increase the family by ONE dog, and in relation to canine chemistry, I have only the choice of getting a female (which, chances are, Oscar would be SMITTEN with) or getting a male (which he could easily "dislike" from day one and only TOLERATE in my presence, maybe not, but maybe). Would it be "kinder" of me to just get a female so that he isn't fighting the urge to FIGHT all the time with a male (if it actually worked out that way)?
Or is this a human projection of emotion? He *might* learn to tolerate a male just fine, but the chances for relative "happiness" or contentment are better with a female...

~Natalya

I don't think their happiness is like ours, so I wouldn't worry about it from that angle. I try to take charge of mine to the point where their first instinct isn't to take a situation where they're being wronged into their own paws. If I maintain control at all times, they'll look to me for control. That's kind of what I mean by not "liking" each other. Left to their own devices, they will certainly pi$$ each other off, but under direction and supervision they can co-exist peacefully. Widget would be the only exception; his hatred for Caleb is intense. He will stare at him and shake because he knows he will be punished if he does what he wants, which is run up and attach himself to Caleb's face. Caleb will still look his way and greet him when he walks in the door, but it does not go both ways. I keep them separated most of the time b/c Widget's anger triggers seizures...lol. Hateful little thing.

Get the dog you want; there are no guarantees. I'm with you on the males...I love my boys!