as i mentioned in another thread about playing, luc has been assessed to have fear aggression and territorial aggression (me being part of luc's territory ) as always, sorry if this is long, i just want to provide context and i would really like to learn as much as possible about luc's motivations and behaviour. i'm really enjoying him but i know we have some things to work on.

luc is 3.5 years old. i got him 2 months ago, he was in foster care for 6 weeks before that, and a no-kill shelter (no walks, dogs sent out in runs) for 2.5-3 years before that.

i'm working on groundwork, being a good pack leader, and we are doing private aggression control classes mixed w/basic obedience.

i'm wondering - when is his aggression fear-based, and when is it territorial? here are the examples i can think of:

-1 week after i got luc, i took him backpacking. we stayed in the frontcountry campground 1 night before going on the trail. i put him on a tie-out that kept him within our site only. while setting up the tent or doing other things around the site (my back turned or decreased attention/leadership on my part) if people went by - particularly men (i assume b/c of their size, not any other reason) he would move to the front of the site, assume an alert aggressive position and growl or let out a short bark. at one point he huffed and did some minor raising up and down of his front legs. he was fairly responsive when i said 'HEY!' in a sharp tone.
-in the backcountry, he was fine with the few people we met on the trail, though he does not like being petted by strangers - that's fine - and very clearly did not like one man who tried to walk a short distance with us b/c he'd 'never seen a working dog before' (????? luc was carrying his food in a backpack)
he barked a few times the first night in one site - it was fairly close to the trail and i think people may have passed that i didn't hear. he also became agitated by a snapping turtle at the bottom of the cliff in the water and growled.

-late at night in a park alone - he is trained to go the washroom in this park - two men passed by. i didn't see them as a threat and forgot about them. i was picking up luc's poop, my back turned, when luc moved forward on his leash in an alert aggressive position and began to growl. i turned around, saying 'HEY!' and saw the two men about 20 metres away watching us (i think they'd just stopped to talk with no bad intentions). i heard 'THAT WAS THAT DOG!' and they took off.

-a few days later, i took luc to the dog park early in the morning b/c there are no dogs there at 6.15 and we were practicing off-leash. the park is at the bottom of a bowl, essentially, with a school and some stairs and weird under-hill/building places at one end where we enter. as we entered, there was a man going under the stairs/weird part who looked sketchy but didn't bother us. we continued to the grassy area and i took luc off leash. he generally stays within 10-20M of me, but a runner (i think male, but forgot my glasses) came along the top of the bowl and towards where we'd come from where the other man was. luc continually watched this and in the middle of the park (open fields) turned to face where we'd come from in an alert aggressive pose and began growling. i could kind of see the people at the other end of the park, but again, no glasses. i turned and called him - he will generally come - he refused. he wasn't moving forward towards the people, but he wouldn't move from where he was standing either. i went forward to get him - i initially didn't want to do so b/c i didn't want him to run towards those people (like i was chasing him) when he was behaving that way. he did not move, but continued to stay there and after i leashed him and pulled him away he continued to turn around and check behind us.

-booties. b/c of mesh/silnylon in my tents, i thought getting dog boots would be a good idea. the first time we tried them on he mouthed me and was agitated - i reprimanded him - but that was it. i was able to put the boots on. i have worked on sensitizing his feet - i can press on them, rub them, probe them, spread them, wag his nails, you name it - boots - no. my mom wanted to get him these fancy boots as her 'welcome' present so she took us to a high-end shop near her. he refused to put on the booties, and mouthed me, snarled (!!!) but did not bite. i gave him calm times and then eventually walked to the other end of the store and ignored him. i don't know if this would have worked, but my mother picked up his leash and started cooing at him about how it was ok. i told her to cut it out.

-walking him at 4.30 in the morning (i'd been sick and we'd missed the bedtime walk; i woke up and felt well enough to take him out). a car pulled in to a driveway on the street (there's not a lot of driveways near me, i'm in a city) and the driver got out and walked down the street to the path to his door. luc began growling.

-backpacking a month ago (the trail is known for being isolated) i tore two ligaments in my ankle. it was just me and luc. on the way there (it's a day and half drive) luc was barky/high-alert in the campground but would shut up when i told him too.
after i hurt my ankle, oddly, 3 kayakers came into the camping site i'd made my way back to early that day. they were staying a bit down river, and i was right on lake superior, but i took luc over to say hi shortly after they landed as he'd heard them and was looking suspicious. he barked quite aggressively and would not be quiet for me. the kayakers handled it well - none tried to engage with him - and weren't bothered by it. we had dinenr with them, and luc was fine as long, though had low tolerance of one of them leaving and then approaching. if i was on the beach and he was on the tie-out in our camp 10M away, and one of the men went down to the beach further on, luc would freak out.
luc knew i was injured and having trouble walking, but i'm not sure if this factored into his response or not.
i decided to stay at the spot for a while to let my ankle heal somewhat. i saw bear tracks on the beach while walking luc - no big deal - but around noon, in camp, with the only attractant out being luc's food - i mean the only attractant, even the first aid kit was in the bear boxes away from camp - luc started freaking out, barking and growling. i looked up and saw a bear taking off through the woods 5 feet back of our tent. i thought it might have been passing through and that i would be alert and not overreact. 10 minutes later i was down at the beach getting water and luc started up again - i didn't see the bear, but i assume it came back and for the safety of all three of us - me, luc, and the bear - luc and i left.

those are the major incidences. luc is generally highly nervous/tries to run away around other dogs, though not always. we were accosted by a large weirmeiner (sp???) once who was growling and lunging towards us - i stayed in front and luc held his ground well. i intially took him to the dog park thinking it would be good socializing (i haven't for 5 weeks and don't plan to again) and if the other dogs came to close luc would snap but never connect - so he was either warning them or had bad aim, but either way, it wasn't good in my opinion for him to be there.

when being assessed by the trainer, luc would tense up at aggressive approaches and begin to growl/bear his teeth.

thoughts? where is he territorial/where is it fear? would the fear be all the aggressive approaches? some of the stuff where he seems to be defensive towards a defined area or me (like the beach and kayakers) i think is partially fear - he's not confident - but i don't know where the proportions lie.

anyways, most people on here have dogs and dog knowledge i'm in absolute awe of - i will ask the trainer we are working with as well, but would be interested in other takes!

thanks!

Firstly, what an angel you are for rescuing this dog that had been in a shelter for so long!

Secondly, congratulations on getting yourself a trainer to work with that understands the breed.

Hopefully some GSD owners and rescue owners chime in with some experience, I really just wanted to bump your thread.

The dog sounds suprisingly normal considering its history.

The dog has already saved you from a bear and warned you of strangers in the night

Keep the dog on a longline in the park perhaps?

thanks jennifer - the training is going really well so far, luc is picking up stuff really fast (it's mostly me who's the dumb one at this point! ) he's surprised me w/how normal he is too, when i went to meet him i was expecting a basket case of a dog.

yup, i did praise him for the bear - LOTS and LOTS of praise. with the strangers - i have to admit i felt kind of insulted. i'm in pretty good shape, and the two guys were skinny hipster types - my initial reaction was 'what, you don't think i could take them?' which is absurd on many levels, i know. *blush* plus, i'm not sure if he was trying to warn me or doing something else.

i guess that's it - i haven't figured out all of his motivators yet, and how the different types of aggression work as motivators and creators of his behaviour.

i put him on a longlead - it's actually a 12M tie out i use camping, it has a handle - in the park. it's helped a lot, i used it initially, was moving away from it, until one morning someone came early and unleashed their dogs b/f they were in the park. luc and husky ignored each other, until the jack russell started chasing luc and the husky joined in. luc did not respond to come then - luckily there was a parking lot b/f the street and luc stopped there. luc is ALWAYS on it now, for the foreseeable future!

The thing to understand about territorial aggression is that (generally) it only crops up when the dog is in what it perceives as its territory. When we go to a hotel, or set up a tent, we tend to put ourselves in the mindset of "home away from home" -- dogs don't make this distinction. For them, it's just...a transitory place to rest. It sounds like all of the cases you've described are probably fear aggression. This website might help:

http://www.petsit.com/content91.html

When he barks at someone, watch the commissures of his mouth (the corners) and see where they go. If they go forward, (mouth forms an O, lips puckered) this generally indicates dominant aggression. I'm sure you've seen dogs bark like this. If they are pulled back when he barks, into a grimace, it usually indicates defensiveness. Watching the mouth is a big factor in determing what's going on with him.

It seems like his issues are manageable (He isn't Charging other dogs or people) and you should be able to encourage a different type of behaviour.

Honestly, he seems to bark at really appropriate times. He needs a little reassurance, but in general, gosh, I'm happy to know you have him when you're out on isolated trails with strange men!

Realize that he will never be a dog for the general populace. This dog specifically is your dog, you are his whole pack, and everyone else is an outsider(I think this is the case more for luc than for 98% of the dogs on the planet). There is no rule that says that he has to like anyone else, as long as he does what you say. It seems like, with the barking, he's making a decision. It might go something like this: "I know you said to be quiet, but did you know that those men are looking at us?! Go away! Go away men!" And, to me, that's ok.

There's a thread in the general forum titled "I broke my dog" about a woman who was working on aggression and broke her dog down so far that he turned into a puddle. That's what I want to warn you against. Luc seems to have GREAT situational awareness. You need to find a way to temper that with confidence in you, and eventually in himself. I'm happy that you're taking aggression classes, just make sure your focus is on treating the root, not the symptoms. Look at the big picture. Watch his commissures and body language when he interacts with you, and you'll really start to get a feel for his moods and the where his fearfulness stems from.

And don't lose track of how far you've come! That's a huge pitfall. You guys have made a lot of progress together, and he's going to have a good life because you're willing to work for him. I think dogs understand that, in a way, and there's no greater bond than the one you and he are forging.

 Quote: David Eagle

but in general, gosh, I'm happy to know you have him when you're out on isolated trails with strange men!

you sound like my mother!

thank you! i see what you're saying about fear aggression and the other places being too unfamiliar to be his territory. the only place i can see it is the park, b/c he's there 3X/day, that's the only place he goes to the washroom.

looking at the link, his body language is mixed - he has a lot of what they describe as 'dominant agression' body language when he does this, not always of course though - some of it is obviously fear aggression, i can really see that.

i don't want to come down too hard on him - i don't want to undercorrect or overcorrect, and my trainer has been really helping with that. also making sure in obedience situations that i sound more bubbly and excited, which luc is responding really well too.

i'm taking the aggression classes mostly so i can understand his behaviour - b/c absolutely - i want to stop it before it starts, not just control it, and i can't do that without understand what's causing it.

i agree his issues seem manageable - he doesn't look for these situations, to me, and even in classes - last night w/the sport protection people (strangers) there was the first time i actually got to practice a correction, b/c when my trainer did one aggressive approach for an assessment, luc reacted. when he did the second approach so i could practice stepping in, luc didn't react - b/c he'd seen him do it once already and it was fine. even last night - luc only reacted on the first person's approach - after that he was like 'dunno why these people keep doing this but i'll just sit here'. and i am fine with him not being a dog for outsiders.

he is a great boy - and i'm sure a lot of this will improve as we keep bonding. i think he knows how proud i am of him, b/c i truly am - he inspires me, as i get to know him i think he has way more strength than i first realized - the adjustments he's made to settle in and get used to a city and non-shelter environment are amazing.

i get nervous b/c he's my first dog and i want to do things right, and b/c while it's mild aggression, it is aggression - and i have a friend w/2 dogs - 1 has bitten 4 people, 3 needing hospital treatment, he has punctured one cat's esophagus and bitten 2 dogs. the other has bitten two people (skin broken only once). both dogs have been quarantined. the second dog - the one with the better record - i actually think is really unstable, i don't like it - but her first dog i think she allowed to become really dominant and that she created, to a large part, who he is. she's incredibly permissive with him. i want so hard not to be like her and do right by luc, that i worry if i'm doing enough, too much, etc.

and also this aggression stuff is confusing!

BRAVO, Jennifer & Luc !!! You're doing great & have come to the right place <:-) I would order the following DVD today...

http://www.leerburg.com/301.htm

We have an Akita bitch I raised from a baby pup (I believe all Akita breeders should send a copy of this video home with everyone who buys their puppies!) and a male Dobie we adopted from Doberman Rescue, where he had spent 2 YEARS waiting for a new home, and he came with a number of similar behaviors to Luc's -- In the DVD, Ed deals with many different types of aggression & dominance issues, so you can't go wrong buying it...

I also have a 10 year old intact male Borzoi who just tolerates our 2 younger pack members & reigns as "top dog" under me (I, of course, am "alpha bitch" LOL) -- Ed Frawley & Cindy Rhodes are the greatest, so I recommend ALL of Leerburg's videos & training articles <:-)

hmmm....i was just looking at this:
http://www.pawsacrossamerica.com/interpret.html

assuming the site is accurate, luc's body language in most of situations - is more of the guarding (the differences b/tw it and aggressive seem small, but the ear and vocalization stuff of luc seems to be more guarding than dominant as described there).

the only time he has the fearful body language is with dogs. though i recognize there's no 'fear aggression' category on this page, so....

in assessment and class, he did not go fully into the guarding or aggressive body language. in all park situations he did though, and in camping situations when someone passed our site.

i'm still confused!

thanks candi!

i've read the aggressive article as well as the theory of corrections. i saw the dvd, and this is my own hang-up/denial - thought 'oh, that's not my luc!' part of me is like - 'well, maybe he has some aggression, but he's not, you know, aggressive . he hasn't hurt anyone.' which i'm aware is ridiculous - i know i can't wait for him to get worse and hurt anyone or just be out of control.
(the other reason why i haven't ordered it is by choice i have no tv and the dvd player on my computer is broken but i should and watch it at my mom's or somewhere)

but he has intimidated and frightened people - in the park and camping - even if he's not coming into contact with them. and i'm not okay with him intimidating people like that, it's inappropriate to me. in the first frontcountry camping, even though he was well within the campsite, on a tie out a couple in their 60s - the guy looked pretty big and strong though - stopped and wouldn't pass by (on the road several metres away) b/c he made them so nervous. (i'm not sure if the people saw the tie out as it's black and so is he, though i did tell them twice he was on one while i was apologizing for his behaviour and getting him to quiet down - he didn't really stand down that well (he stopped the huffing, growling and few barks he'd done but stayed silently at the front in that alert aggressive position just STARING at them) but i figured it out as the afternoon went on)

(of course, he intimidates some people no matter what - yesterday morning on our run we passed a couple - the woman was on the outside away from us - she shrieked, jumped two feet away, and clutched her chest in fear - luc wasn't even looking at her, he's very businesslike on runs - but of course he did once she put on that show! i praised him for being calm and a good boy and glared at them, which i probably shouldn't have done.

You can also learn a lot by seeing if he's leaning forward or backwards. Forward would indicate dominant aggression, backwards a more defensive stance.

It might be worthwhile to set up a situation where your trainer can watch him (from hiding) while he's induced by a stranger to one of these behaviours. Perhaps before class, in an unfamiliar spot near the building.

Another option is video-taping him, and posting it here on the forum. I'm sure one of the resident K9 experts could tell you a bit based on some footage.

he leans forwards. sigh.

the problem is - sometimes he's totally fine with strangers. there is a park near the training facility, maybe we could do that there AND videotape it.

edited to add: he's more likely to display the dominant stance when my back is turned - the time when i was setting up the tent, cooking dinner on the stove (camping, not in the house), and when i had my back turned in the park with the two guys b/c i was picking up his poop. i am trying to limit those situations b/c i can see those triggers.

Edited by Jennifer Mullen (08/29/2007 12:19 PM)
Edit reason: addition!