i have a friend who has two dogs (both fixed):

Rocky - 6 yo black lab/collie/husky.
Rocky has bitten 4 people (that i know about). 3 of those people had to go the hospital (including my friend). The bites all occured if someone stepped on/near/over Rocky. He has been quarantined once.
Rocky also bit my friend's former cat (who now lives w/me) and punctured her esophagus (food aggression).
Rocky has bitten two dogs (that i know about). No serious injury resulted from either bite. Once they were visiting a friend's home, and the friend's dog got walked between Rocky and my friend (who were at least 10M apart).

Trixie - 9 mo old hound/shepherd????? cross.
Trixie has bitten 2 people. The first time, she did not break the skin. The second, she escaped from the yard and ran at a passerby, barking and jumping on him, tearing his pants. She scratched him. My friend's husband offered to pay for new pants, and my friend emailed me indignantly 'the guy seemed so upset, she just wanted to say hi'. The guy called the cops ('who were really sorry they had to bother us') and animal services got involved and Trixie was quarantined.
Trixie is an aggressive barker, at any stranger (or known individual) who enters the house, enters a room, or passes outside the house.
She strikes me as extremely unstable and both my friend and her husband have admitted they find her unpredictable.

Myself and another friend have told her she needs to muzzle the dogs in public (neither of us will allow our dogs near hers) and become a pack leader. Begged, pleading, yelling, offers of help - NOTHING has really changed IMO. While neither of the her dogs are covered under Ontario's BSL, the BSL does have general provisions to all dogs re: aggressiveness, seizure and euthanasia. We've pointed out she's lucky this hasn't already happened.

A year ago, after Rocky bit my friend, she did take him to a behaviourist (who runs a jungle cat centre and trains wolves - ???). He put on a bite sleeve, ran at Rocky and tried to aggravate him into biting. Rocky hid behind my friend. This was one session, and all that came out of it is that she tells people Rocky's biting 'is actually a submissive behaviour'. Even I know that's BS.

Both dogs are underexercised as well.

Both dogs were rescued - and have had some not-perfect starts in life which I could go into, but honestly - who cares. It doesn't make this okay.

As if all of this wasn't already bad enough, my friend is 3.5 months pregnant with twins.

Before I adopted Luc, I got Cesar Milan's book. I lent it to them, they read it, and think that b/c they are teaching the dogs they have to have permission to go into the bedroom, everything will be fine.

My friend is very submissive - I don't think she is capable of giving corrections. I've seen her try to get a baked potato from Rocky and fail, b/c he was growling and snarling at her and 'it's easier just to let him have it' - the previous-mentioned friend and myself took it from him (who lets a dog run them like that?). Her husband is very laid back.

Both make excuses for the dogs, and stories of the bites change from the day after to a year later so that it makes it sound less like Rocky's fault.

I have gotten my friend to the point where she admits behaviour modification classes would be a good thing. But there is always a reason why money is tight, and if it happens, I'll die of shock. In my experience they would never pay the amount what I'm paying for Luc's aggression control classes.

They got married last weekend, I was a bridesmaid, and then honestly - part of me just wants to wash my hands of them, b/c I don't like or respect them as much anymore b/c of all of this. But....I'd like to try.

Is there anything else that can be done to get them to realize how dangerous this situation is?

Honestly, it sounds like they are in complete denial. Since the dogs have already attacked people and they have really done nothing about it I don't think anything you say or do will help the situation. Most likely once the babies arrive, they will probably give the dogs to a shelter or rehome the dogs.

Kimberly

i think you might be right. though i just don't see these dogs doing well in a shelter, and i can't imagine who'd volunteer to take them.

(though i know rocky far better than trixie, and if he had the right owner, i think there'd be a huge difference.)

....and at this point, i can't think what else to do, short of beating my friend over the head until she gets it (which you're probably not supposed to do with pregnant ladies.... ) i feel bad, b/c i do have a relationship w/rocky - when she'd lived closer to me (in an apartment), she walked him maybe 45 minutes over 3 walks in the entire day, so evenings when she rode, i walked him and really took him out for a long time - so he loves me, and her refusal to step up here pisses me off. but i can't fix this for her any further than i already have by taking her cat (which while i love the cat i regret doing so b/c i think i enabled her to not address the situation)

 Quote: kimberly bunk

. . . I don't think anything you say or do will help the situation. . .

Unfortunately, this may be true, but since you are close enough to her/them to be a bridesmaid, I'd do at least one more thing. Give them Ed's eBook on children and dog bites - http://www.leerburg.com/pdf/Preventing%20Dog%20Bites%20in%20Children.pdf - at least the pictures might get their attention.

And then, depending on how well you can communicate them, I'd talk to both of them together and say something between
(1) "you should consider re-homing the dogs with someone without kids - they'll be too much for you to handle with twins" and
(2) "you have to be total f#(%!+g idiots to expose infants to these out-of-control dogs. It's just a matter of time before someone gets seriously bitten and scarred."

As clueless as they may be, I personally wouldn't feel good about not making a serious attempt to make them understand the future probabilities. Regardless of your feelings about the dogs, there are going to be two totally innocent children who shouldn't be exposed to this kind of danger.

Sorry, but for me if it came to a choice of the dog in a shelter vs. in the house with these kids, I'd have no problem making a decision. There can be other options and, hopefully, they can arrive at one that's better for the dogs.

Good luck!

Mike

the kids absolutely have to come first here - and i guess even though i hope they'll be able to make changes before they come, i know it's not going to happen. and while i really like rocky (sort of) - i know exactly what you mean.

i've read the e-book - when they get from their honeymoon, they are getting it!!!!!!

there's myself and one other friend who are in her face about this - i tend to approach number 1, my friend to approach number 2 (she's actually been plumping for rocky's euthanasia for the past year or so, and FLIPPED when she found out they'd taken trixie).
(the thing is - i think the serious wound has already happened - rocky gave my friend as well as an acquaintance pretty serious punctures wounds on the feet requiring antibiotics, regular draining, etc etc and made it very difficult to walk for weeks. huge swelling.)

reading what i just wrote - anyone who thinks their dogs are fine after that - this is going to be bad. i think i will get my other friend and we will stage an intervention on their return from the honeymoon.

and thanks! i think we'll need luck.

Hey, let us know how this goes. My first reaction when you brought up the fact that she was having kids was: Forget about the dogs, you need to buy her parenting books. If she can't keep two dogs in line she's going to have a heck of a time disciplining children. But this is a dog forum. And I feel the need, if not to offer new advice, then at least to commiserate with my fellow dog lovers.

A dog that has bitten and sent people to the hospital needs to be taken on by an experienced handler, or put down. I love dogs, even the ones that are snarky and rude. Even the ones that bark obnoxiously and constantly make trouble. But a dog that has problems of this caliber needs to be somewhere that can handle it, or it needs to be a memory.

I really feel that your focus should be convincing them that they need to turn the dogs over to a rescue organization, or euthanize at least the vicious one. I love dogs, but human children are always more important than dogs.

The time for half-measures and rehabilitation is passed. They had that chance when they were two adults living with two dogs. Now they're becoming two adults who are responsible for two children, it's too late for them to "fix" these dogs.

I know I'm preaching to the choir, but when you go in there I hope that you'll have confidence. This isn't just your opinion that you're shoving down their throats, it's the combined opinion of a lot of different people from different walks of life who all want one thing above all: Healthy happy humans who can provide good lives for healthy happy dogs. Putting your kids in danger isn't part of that equation.

i talked to my friend (the one who is also really worried about this and has confronted her) - alana - and she feels she's said everything she could say.

so i'm going to print off both ebooks on dogs and kids, and give them to them, and bluntly say - 'look - these dogs are dangerous and they are going to hurt your kids. you HAVE to do something and you are NOT doing enough.' you're right david - it's not just me or alana who thinks so. when i got luc assessed pre-aggression control classes (and luc acts like a fuzzy little caterpillar next to these two dogs) i asked if they would work with dogs like my friend's, and my friend, and they said 'of course....but your friends have to be willing to' - also that it was a matter of when, not if, the dogs (particularly rocky) went after the babies, and that my friend needed to be in there basically yesterday b/c as she gets more pregnant she may not be physically capable of giving the corrections he needs.

i'm also not sure of any rescue organization around here that has the resources to work with a dog like rocky....there must be one though. but i have a feeling he'll either be euthanized, or rehomed w/out them being honest about his behaviour.

....sigh. i will update though.

(but i'm not feeling hopeful at the moment - i'm remembering - after the last time rocky attacked/bit (punctures etc) in july, on a canoe trip, steph (my friend) said 'well, i guess i should put a muzzle on him at night, b/c he's black and hard to see. that, and we didn't bring enough gauze. we need to make sure to bring more gauze in the first aid kit.' if the lesson you take from your dog attacking someone is 'more gauze for the first aid kit', well, then....)

and if anyone knows of any rescue in the toronto or ontario area that would be willing to/could work with aggressive dogs like these, could you PM me? thanks!

okay, well i didn't update this for a long time.

my friend went into labour early, both babies died after being born a day apart (one lived for 2 hours, one for 15 minutes). so the children are no longer an immediate issue though they are planning on trying again when given the okay by the doctor.

they started taking their dogs to the trainer i took luc to but withdrew from after bad advice ( http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=134&Number=164228&Searchpage=1&Main=17006&Words=trainer+Jennifer+Mullen&topic=0&Search=true#Post164228 ) (page 6)

so they've been some improvement, and are getting that they have to stop trixie from picking on rocky, for instance. so that's okay.

they are moving out to the country to a house on a horse farm owned by someone who appears to me to a BYB - 3 GSDs, one pregnant by her ambulldog 'accidentally', no titles on any of the dogs that i'm aware of, some other stuff that just makes me go 'yuck'. they theoretically have a yard there but i don't think the fencing is perfect.

rocky has been picked on a bit by their GSDs. i don't think they really get that they shouldn't be allowing that. anyways, things seem to be settling and they're thrilled he gets to 'run with a pack'. trixie is being picked on by one of the dogs, and acting aggressively around my friends now.

(" yeah, all day yesterday Trixie was all riled up over something or other, growling at me, too. I had to scruff her several times when we were painting. There is a young GSD at the new place who is picking on her, and I think that might have a reflection on her behaviour - she is not used to being shut down by another dominant dog. ")

she also, at the house they are living at now (they haven't moved yet, they actually live in the bungalow i'm going to be moving to), stopped tying trixie on a long lead in the backyard (something new) so trixie has been getting out again. and she got out over the weekend and bit a lady (no broken skin, so it's like my friend doesn't think it counts or really happened) and is now under a muzzle order.

("Trixie got out of the backyard and harassed some lady who claimed she bit her and called the cops. The cops said there was no evidence that she bit her, but the lady was making a big deal. The cop said that Trixie was definately a friendly dog, but they have to call animal services because the woman reported that she was bit. (there was no skin puncture). Animal services is telling us they will issue a muzzle order for Trixie. We told them we were moving, but they said it's Ontario wide. Luckily she won't have to wear one when on the property. ")

i told her they need to protect trixie from other dogs, since they're the pack leaders, and they need to keep her in the yard, on the long lead (they don't/won't go out to supervise....also they don't really walk the dogs).

i feel like i'm talking to a brick wall. any thoughts? i think i may need to just start smiling and nodding. i'm just very frustrated at this.

 Quote: Jennifer Mullen

i think i may need to just start smiling and nodding. i'm just very frustrated at this.

Why bother smiling? The issues don't sound to be that funny...

If they ask for your advice (and every time they ask), just hand them a piece of paper that says http://www.leerburg.com
OH, and nod.

If you don't want to remain friends, there are plenty of threats to go around. Landlord doesn't want to loose home insurance if the insurance company found out there's a dog with a bite history on the property.

Of course, there are nicer ways to make them aware of their danger without threatening to call personally, but it's a risky business.