I'm not certain if I pushed Luc too hard on our walk this morning.

We did our usual - go the park, pee, do some obedience (I dropped the leash on a couple of sit stays and down stays, and comes, and he did really good - one dropped leash down stay I moved around him, not staying stationary, and he held! Yay!).

Then we headed down a nearby street - I needed to pick something up from someone's porch a few blocks down. There was a car-free zone street party - sounds great! - but they also had loud music playing. It was early and there weren't a lot of people there yet, they were still setting up. Luc didn't freak out until we were within the car-free zone. I'm not sure if it was the music, or - when we got to the end of the zone, a streetcleaner had gone by recently, and Luc has a real thing about those.

Anyways, he planted and tried to pull backwards. I reoriented him and then had him sit. Waited a moment, and then kept going the way I wanted. He pulled and yelped for about a metre and a half and then he decided to walk with me. He heeled - head high, he was nervous, I tried to project calm confident energy. When we were a block away from the area he began to heel perfectly - tonnes of slack - and was pretty submissive. I did have him sit, and gave him lots of praise and a big hug. I repeated some obedience/praise further down.

He did well the rest of the walk - he sometimes gets nervous in one part of it if there's a bus, but he did about as well as he usually does.

When we got to our porch, he was happy, wagging tail, dog grin, and he started our twirls (we both twirl around, bow to each other, repeat, only broken by my tickling him - he loves it).

My question is - you're not supposed to push a nervous/fearful dog, right? But I don't see how he's going to learn that something isn't going to hurt him if he doesn't experience it. And in my experience of him, once he's sufficiently nervous to plant, he'll stay nervous regardless of whether I give in and go a different way or not. But I don't want to flood him, and I don't want him to associate incorrectly (the prong pinching) when he's fearful.

Thoughts? I feel like he was upset for a bit afterwards, but calmed down. Knowing him, he may be nervous in that part of the street for the next 1-2 walks, and then forget it. Should I have turned around the way he wanted when he first planted since it was a fear reaction? I worry that since my natural reaction isn't to be sympathetic to his fear I'll push him past what he can handle mentally and mishandle his fearful moments. He seemed great at the end of the walk, but the street party portion was hard on him, and I worry that I might make him more fearful - but a very situational fear - by doing what I did.

IMHO, you forced your dog to do something that made him nervous.

When I have pups that get nervous, I take them away from whatever is spooking them and once we are far enough away to where I see the pup relax, we have some play time/treat time.
If the pup wants to go back and investigate, I allow it and encourage it but the instant they seem spooked I quit talking and walk away from the "scary thing" again. They end up getting closer and closer on their own and they get to realize that I am going to help them and protect them, not force them.

I NEVER make the pup/dog do something!!! And I never speak to my pups/dogs when they are nervous, coddling them will just reinforce the behavior as they look at it as a reward.


Your dog needs to trust you and you will never have that by making him do something when he is obviously not willing to.

Back to basics and work on trust and confidence building, not to mention building a bond with him by way of positive reinforcement.

 Quote: jennifer mullen

And in my experience of him, once he's sufficiently nervous to plant, he'll stay nervous regardless of whether I give in and go a different way or not.

If he plants and will not move, it pretty much means that you have pushed him into being so nervous that everything has locked up and he is scared to do anything. IMHO, you pushed him way too far.

he planted without warning, or rather, i missed the warnings. he often does it very suddenly. since he planted within the area, it was a matter of taking him nervous the way he wanted to go or taking him nervous the way he didn't want to go - or that's how it seemed to me at the time. i've been working really hard to pick up on his fear triggers, and the ones that occur more regularly i do know and will address. this came out of the blue.

i am trying to work on confidence building, trust, and a bond - every day - and as much positive reinforcement as i can. that is my major focus.

when i got him, he was scared of everything, so i had to take him through fearful moments to some degree or he never would have left the house. he's improved a huge amount, but i expect he'll always have some issues.

i feel like i screwed up today - but then i'm confused b/c he's not upset and after we were out of the area, he behaved well. he initiated our ususal end of walk play (the twirling) and has been happy and affectionate in the house. but obviously i did make a mistake.

Jennifer,

I apologize, I read my post and it sounds really harsh.....I don't think you screwed up per say, just maybe need to take smaller steps.....my female GSD (contract dog) is 8 months old and she still gets "leary or nervous" around certain things.....but she snaps out of it quickly and then is all over what spooked her.

I spend a lot of time going in "circles" so to speak, get close, walk away and play, closer, go away and play.....and so on.....she is SO much better now than when she first got off the plane. She came to me at 14-15 weeks so she was a little leary to even exit her crate at first.

I agree that it can be frustrating and not knowing past history or how they are raised definitely plays a part.

Keep on truckin' girl, it all pays off in the end.

Hi Jennifer, your description of Luc reminded me a lot of Jenga's earlier days.

I think Caroline's "circles" method is one that works really well, and one that I've used with Jenga. We do a lot of backing up, calming down, and then "hey, what's that?" and exploring at a slow pace. Jenga also does the "planting" - suddenly and to the extreme, and once he's at that level, he's not going to learn from the situation.

Don't be too hard on yourself though. When Jenga was younger, he was afraid of doorways for some reason, and as you might imagine, it presented quite a problem for every day life. I admit there were days when I just dragged him through out of frustration. The days we spent taking it slow showed much more progress, but my point is, don't dwell on mistakes, just learn from them!

thanks carol and heather.

and carol, it's also just that i was mad at myself! he's done so well that he's mostly past the days of 'i have to drag you b/c you have to go out', and i was like 'you idiot, you can take a different approach now'.

....actually his worst ever plant was the third night i had him - canada day weekend and there were fireworks. he just freaked out and i couldn't move him anywhere, and he was in a crappy harness he could pull out of that came with him. i ended up picking him up like a cat and carrying him up the street. when we got to the next street i sat him down, and he walked - i think he was embarrassed.

but you're both right - i think now we are at the point where we can go slow and he'll figure it out. i can get him to walk past dogs without spooking now (i get him to focus on heeling) - obviously he's put that together in his head and he can with the other random things that spook him as well, but i need to give him the chance.

we just got back from the vet and his first ever nail trim (i've had him for 3 months, he's overdue, but luckily i guess we do enough walking on pavement only his front nails really needed it. he did pretty good, though of course was nervous during the trim - he expressed his anal glands :eww. but he was heeling and wagging his tail on the walk over, which i was relieved to see, and in the vet, when he heard another dog barking in the back, he sat on my feet and leaned against my legs, which made me feel good, that he saw me as a safe place, for that at least.

but thanks both of you - i feel better - i also just hate that i don't always know what i'm doing, and that luc ends up getting the brunt of me being dumb, so to speak. and even though i'm not really sympathetic to some of his fearful moments, i do feel really bad about them - if that makes any sense - i hate seeming him like that. i'm also just overly emotional today b/c my foster cat is having a near-fatal IBD flare up (but i think she's almost turning the corner) and she hasn't been this bad in a year and a half.

edited to add: and the vet tech got all upset when she saw he had a prong collar on, and told me i should use a gentle leader, that it worked for her rottie. i said 'i tried that already' but inside i was like 'WAAAAHHHHHHHH'. i think i need a nap!

Jennifer,
I also was at the vet today with my dog Nickie wearing his prong collar (and dominant dog collar). After they brought him back from his nail trim and exam of his legs, the vet said the young assistant who brought him back into the room noticed that his "choke collar" was so tight it was sticking him in the neck. I said, it's not a choke collar, it is a prong collar and I have it that tight so it won't slide down out of position on his neck. The vet said that I might want to consider a Gentle Leader for him. I said, nope, that doesn't work at all with this hard headed stubborn guy!

Sometimes I wish people would just mind their own business!

Diane, people are so strange! I had trouble finding one, and all the stores I asked in which didn't carry them looked at me like I was dirt for wanting one....sheesh.

I'm relieved to report that Luc covered the section of the street where he was scared this morning and I pushed him with no noticeable qualms or nervousness tonight. PHEW!

Jennifer, I agree to take it slow with something as intimidating as a street party. A couple of things you can do to encourage future investigation is teach him (if you haven't already) "let's go see" or "let's check it out", etc, but with things he IS familiar with and has no fear of, like a toy, a person, a bush. You get my meaning. Do this often and make it exciting and happy.

Then you can use that command for things he's not familiar with and has apprehension about.

That being said, I'm not clear on whether Luc actually walked through the street party but it sounds like he did. If he did in fact go through the "zone", from his behavior afterwards, to me it sounds like even though you may have gone too fast and expected too much, your dog thinks of you as a safe place, went through it with you and came out on the other side happy and had no negative consequences. He's gaining boldness. Because of how he views you and the trust he's beginning to form toward you, he got through it well. That speaks very well of your dog, and of course of you. That's a big deal that he did.

So I wouldn't worry about what you did anymore. Just make sure in the future that you analyze a situation before you take him into it so you can figure what can go wrong (in his eyes as well as in yours) and have a plan ready or avert it if necessary. I'm not talking about forever, just until his trust of you is 100% and he would follow you anywhere.

Playing with him and then having him do a little obedience, like sit, in the proximity of something that gives him apprehension is a good thing. And don't forget "let's check it out", and when he does, praise and even treats

thanks....we went through the party, though it wasn't busy yet as they were still finishing setting up.

he's learning to play though, so that should give me more options for distracting when he is nervous....that'd be great. i'm doing the 'let's check it out' when he barks at stuff in the house (so far it's always my landlady going in/out).

.....can i ask an off-topic question? not to TMI, but - luc keeps getting erections when we're practicing our obedience (which is always outside now in the park) - i'm praising him lots and being very cheerful/excited, he's doing amazing - he can hold a sit/stay and down/stay while i walk away with my back turned, wander around behind trees etc - i don't give him treats b/c he came to me v. food expectant/nippy - and i'm glad he's enjoying obedience, but - what's up with that? it's all the time. he's neutered, though i know that doesn't stop erections, but - i'm not worrying about it, i figure it's an involuntary happy thing - just curious - is that it? i knew there was a reason i was looking for a girl dog! :LOL: