I'd like some input and/or advice. I truly don't know if the following is a problem or not. Lear, 16 mos old, will do anything, literally anything, for a treat or a toy or a tug. Except on the training field. He's training as a PPD and has had 2 sessions a week since Sept 5th (14 sessions - not counting 5 sessions when he was 9 mos old). All he wants to do when we get to the field is bite training. He gets totally charged and can hardly control himself all the way there but is totally quiet and relaxed in the car when training is over.

It's not that his obedience is bad on the field. His recall is good and fast, so fast that he blows by me (working on him coming to a sit in front of me). His sit and down are both good and he will stay in those positions until called or until I go back to him, breaking rarely.

The breakdown comes when we're NOT doing the obedience session or bite training. When it's just me and him walking around before others get there. I do this to get the edge off some of his energy and do 4 or 5 obedience commands. So while we're walking around, all he wants to do is sniff. Sniff everything, not just bushes and trees but the grass too, almost as if he's tracking but going back and forth with an almost uncontrollable energy and won't listen to anything I say...he barely hears my voice, he's so zeroed into smelling. (We're not training for tracking.) The occasional times he listens it's not with any focus on me whatsoever, he just performs a command totally reluctantly, looking around, just waiting to be released. When he's released he goes back to sniffing like crazy. His focus on me is practically nil, no matter what I have in my hand.

At the end of our session, he again goes back to zero focus on me and all focus on sniffing. Showing him a treat or a tug gets minimal attention. Playing tug with him has no interest for him on the field, either before or after the training, he'll go for it a bit, bite it, then drop it after a few seconds. Which blows me away since I can barely fold clothes or dry my hands without him going nuts to get whatever it is that either looks like a tug or behaves like one. Dogs are not a problem, they don't distract him anymore. This was handled in the first and second session we had. It's just the unending sniffing and no focus on me outside of training session while on the field.

He doesn't sniff during obedience training and it's not even a consideration in his mind during bite training. He came there to work with the decoy and he's not happy until he does. Lately I've noticed Lear wants more bite work than he's getting, like he can't get enough. So he stays a bit edgy afterwards until the drive home.

As far as playing with me on the field after obedience, my trainer says I'm not moving around enough, therefore not interesting to him. However, I've never had to be animated to get his attention and it's usually what I have in my hand that animates him. My son's opinion is that there's nothing I could possibly offer him, not tug, not food, that would be as much fun as fighting with the decoy, that all I've worked to do since he was a pup is to get him to that point, and that Lear knows why he's there and his focus and drive is linear. His mind is only on the decoy, whether the decoy is there yet or not.

An added FYI, although we are at the same park each time, the park is very big and we are not in the same place at the park all the time.

Sandy, I don't think you really have a problem. Before bite training all I would let the dog do is have dump! Don't bother with OB to "take the edge off" this can deplete the drive level because the dog may eventually learn to anticipate OB instead of protection at the training field; not to mention what corrections would do to his drive level if they are needed.

He can't get enough bite work??? That's perfect! You want to finish with the dog in high drive wanting more, that's why sessions should be kept short.

 Quote: Sandy Moore

although we are at the same park each time, the park is very big and we are not in the same place at the park all the time

Protection training should be environmentally exclusive for now. If Lear doesn't associate the portion of the field you are using with anything else I'd imagine that there would be no issue.

Sandy, I think that Brad is right on with his comments.

Have you watched Ed's "First steps of bite training" DVD?

He also says NOT to bother with obedience, especially not with compulsion (not saying you did) right before a bite session. In fact if I remember correctly he says to "let your dog DRAG you onto the field".
You're not even supposed to "stand around and chat" when you take your dog out for bitework. He's pretty clear about getting the talking and the planning done before the dog comes out so that the only thing the handler, helper and dog are focused on is the bite work.
When that's over, the dog goes straight off the field.

Since you're dealing with a young dog who's still in the initial learning phase of bite training, I don't think you need to worry about controlling his drive just yet and expect him to be able to flip himself on and off on command when on the protection field.

He actually sounds like a great pup, you must have so much fun with him

Personally I love seeing that kind of drive and obsession from my pup. It's so much more fun to have a dog with over-the-top drive that you learn to channel over time than it is to try and build up drive in a less enthusiastic dog... have fun with him. Oh and I know I already told you this, but I just love that photo of you two

Ha ha Sandy sounds like our dogs are kindred spirits!

http://www.leerburg.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Board=87&Number=159354&Searchpage=1&Main=16638&Words=&topic=0&Search=true#Post159354

Isn't it fun having a drivy working dog? Amazes the heck out of me every day.

Ahhhh, sign of relief....thanks guys, very much. As I was writing down what was happening, I began to see it more clearly. Writing is good for that . I began to see that no, I absolutely do not want to administer corrections before OR after bitework and that it wasn't a good idea to take him there early and let him out to run around. It hasn't seemed to diminish his drive or energy for the decoy, but I certainly don't want that to happen in the future.

I do love his drive. I even love his obsession. I don't know what I was thinking! Good grief. Back on track, thank you guys and gal. I was beginning to think there was something wrong with what I was doing that I couldn't get his focus on me any time I wanted it out there.

Just to clarify, an obedience session is part of the training. A few minutes of obedience, back in the car, then out for bite training. The obedience I wrote about was on my own, for the purpose of trying to get him to focus on me. Like I said, I don't know what I was thinking cause during the obedience session with the trainer there, he's fine and focused on me, especially when I leave his side for a recall. So I'll stop doing "my own thing" on the field.

Lear was right all along. We're there for one thing. He knew that, I deviated.

My poor baby, the stuff he has to put up with from me.

Geoff, I read that thread with interest as it seemed you were describing Lear . It's what prompted me to post my question.

There is correction administered sometimes during the "formal" obedience session. This can't really be helped, I don't think. But the corrections consist of taking him back if he breaks, or working to get him to sit in front on the recall. He'll do a front sit easily in our backyard but not on the field since he gets to run much faster and further.

Edited to add: if anyone else has input, fire away.

At 16 mos I don't think Lear is too young to be receiving obedience corrections, certainly not if you're keeping him in drive

It really sounds like you're doing a wonderful job with him! Don't worry so much! Lol. Besides, I don't think you could mess that boy up if you tried, considering the drive he has!

 Quote: yuko blum

At 16 mos I don't think Lear is too young to be receiving obedience corrections, certainly not if you're keeping him in drive

I agree, and he does need it sometimes.

 Quote: yuko blum

It really sounds like you're doing a wonderful job with him! Don't worry so much! Lol. Besides, I don't think you could mess that boy up if you tried, considering the drive he has!

Thanks Yuko. Next time I start questioning myself, I'll be certain to post, just in case I need to be put back on track, and who knows, I may be doing something wrong next time and need to hear it, hopefully before my dog tells me .

I can't believe how much I'm learning from Lear. Sometimes I think "follow the dog and listen up". :laugh:

As far as adding in obedience and focus later on, it's not too difficult when the dog realizes that you control whether or not he gets a bite (like in Geoff's thread)

Don't bother trying to get his focus with his usual rewards when you're working around a helper - the bitesuit is the highest value prey item for him so there's no reason for him to focus on his tug or on food.

The reward is being sent out to bite the suit; if you ask for a down and he gives you the down, he gets a bite.
If you ask for a focus exercise like the heel and he does it while focusing on you, he gets a bite, etc.

It won't take him long to understand that when it's time...

I finally got to the point in the send-away training with Taro where he'll actually do in-drive obedience for me (with focus and eye contact) because he knows that the reward (the orbee at the end of the field) will only be available if he does the work.

At first it was just a small step at a time though.
For example I would place the ball at the end of the field, get back to his side and get him to sit. As soon as his butt hit the ground (no corrections here), I gave him the voraus command and he was allowed to charge down field for the ball.

Later on, I'd repeat the exercise and ask for a sit, but I'd withhold the release. After a few seconds, he'd glance up at me ("hey, what gives, why can't I go already??") and I'd reward the eye contact by immediately sending him after the ball.

After a while, when I got back to his side, he'd stare at me continuously because he realized that this is how he was going to get his reward (kinda like the eye contact game!).

Now I ask him to heel and he actually does it with eye contact, in high drive and I can send him after the ball from a perfect heel - even though I don't have the reward on my person.

It's pretty amazing for me to see how far we've come in this exercise without a single correction. After all, this is a dog who used to practically drag me to the ground when it was time to do a send-away!
He's so obsessed with the orbee that he couldn't even follow a simple "sit" command when he knew that the ball was at the end of the field because he wanted to get to it so badly!

Instead of adding in compulsion to force the obedience (and risk damaging his drive and love for the exercise), I just patiently repeated the command and rewarded him as soon as he got it right. Dogs aren't stupid and they figure out pretty quickly what works (obeying commands) and what doesn't work (acting stupid and trying to drag your handler to get the reward) LOL!

Not using compulsion during the learning stage helps because you don't add pressure to the dog and he can focus on learning instead of worrying about getting his butt kicked, so to speak ;-)

Just saying, it might seem like a million years away until you have great focus and snappy obedience from Lear on the protection field, but it'll come. Just be patient and enjoy the process... maybe take some video footage along the way so you can look back on it a few months from now and be surprised at the progress

(Sorry for my example, I know it's not protection-related... just thought there were similarities between your situation and the one I brought up )

 Quote: Yuko Blum

Don't bother trying to get his focus with his usual rewards when you're working around a helper - the bitesuit is the highest value prey item for him so there's no reason for him to focus on his tug or on food.

Amen! That's what my son was saying! And he's not a dog trainer, just a common sense guy and he knows how Lear operates very well . I love it when the fog lifts.

I loved reading how you worked with Taro. Even though there's so many things Lear doesn't need to learn since he's doing PP and not SchH, it would still be fun to train him in these things one day. He loves to train so I doubt I can stop teaching him new things and still keep him happy.

While it's all fine and dandy to have a dog that loves to bite, its obvious the dog likes to bite. So now, getting him to bite isn't an issue anymore, but OB is. I'd stop with the bitework and only do OB for a while, and see if his enthusiasm for OB increases. You need to be animated though, a giant tease and really frustrate the dog making him want to bite his tug. Maybe he likes a ball better than the tug?

Cue your dog up for the work first, make him understand "The prong collar is on and mommy's holding a tug, oh boy oh boy, its time for OB!". If people are doing bitework before your OB session, then ask them to do your OB before they start bitework. Once a dog hears bitework then he is in bitework mode.

If your dog is ready for OB during protection (this depends on the dog and their level, not the age... the dog should be capable of working away from the handler by this stage, rather than the decoy bringing the bite to the dog), then you can start to introduce focus for a bite (eye contract, with the decoy a good distance away behind the dogs back), followed by heeling. Reward the dog by turning around and sending him to the decoy.

Before working my bitch, I always kick the tug accross the field while holding her back just out of reach of getting to it, it really drives her crazy and puts all her focus into the tug.