My background:
Dog owner/trainer for (ahem) approx. 40 years. I have owned many different breeds of dogs, but then for quite a few years owned/trained Labs for OB and Field Trials. Also professionally trained ob.

As I got older, I changed my breed of choice to a "softer" breed...actually two "softer breeds" and have a female Aussie and male BC., which are great dogs and not a problem.

Now the problem: This past summer a friend of mine lost his Lab and was looking for another one and asked my help in finding the right dog for him. As it turned out, one day he was going to look at a 2 yo female lab and I couldn't go along, but after purchasing her from a lab kennel/rescue, he brought her to my house for me to look at etc.

When we took her out of his vehicle she "freaked out", slipped her collar and got away from him and ran off. She ran around our small town all summer and no one could catch her. My friend and I tried a live trap etc., but she somehow tripped it without getting caught and after that would not go in again. We, of course, called the previous owners but she would not come even to them, so after two weeks my friend and the previous owners gave up on her, saying she was "ruined", but I just could not and spent my summer trying to somehow catch her.

Finally the first part of Sept. she had a litter of puppies (the previous owners had told my friend the reason they were selling her is because they wanted to use her for breeding but she would not "catch".) In many conversations with the previous owners there were many discrepencies etc. and we still are not sure if they raised this dog from a puppy or got her as a "rescue".

At any rate, once she was in one place with the puppies I went twice a day and fed/watered her, but although she was not aggressive, she would run off when I came and stand at a distance barking at me.

To cut to the chase, I finally won her trust by tossing her pieces of hot dogs and when the puppies were approx. 4 weeks old I coaxed her into my car! I brought her and the puppies home and put them in an outdoor kennel and eventually placed all the puppies.

Now the problem: My friend had bought another dog by then and did not want her, but another lady from town that was helping me try to catch her told me if I did not want her, she wanted her. This lady has about 8 dogs and while she treats her dogs well, I don't feel they get enough exercise etc., and I really don't want "Summer" going to her so I am trying to keep her.

Basically, Summer is a great dog. She is quiet in the outdoor kennel and seems to be housebroken etc. I have the feeling somewhere along the line she has had some training, because she walks on leash beautifully and has (mostly) a phenomenal recall. I trained her to a retriever whistle, and she responds very well to it.

My problem is: The "honeymoon period" is now over and she is becoming bolder and has began to run into the neighbors yard on our walks. She will, at a certain point, "blow me off" and run into their yard eventhough I tell her "no", which she "usually" responds to very well". She will eventually come when I blow the whistle, but this is very annoying, and with two other dogs and my age, I feel totally overwhelmed by this at times. I have entertained the idea of giving her to the other lady, but I can't bring myself to do it. I love this dog and see a lot of potential in her, but to be honest, I feel "too old" to cope.

I have an appointment to get her spayed this coming Friday, and I really do want to keep her, because my other dogs are getting up there (11 years old each), but I don't know if I can survive this "stage" Summer is going through.

Help please! Thanks!

I understand where you are coming from. I had to put down my Rott at 12 years old. I am 61 years old. I did a lot of soul searching before I got a new pup. I went the opposite route than you are considering and went for a super hard, driven, active Dutchie. He will sit there a bark at me if he gets bored. Judging from your post are kind of looking for some reassurance with your decision to give up this dog. Is it possible to find her a better home than someone with 8 dogs already?

Edited by lee sternberg (11/19/2007 07:27 AM)
Edit reason: grammar

My thoughts are first you need to make up your mind: either commit to keeping this dog or rehome her. If you commit to keeping her, recognize that she needs some serious training - more than your other dogs, by the sound of it - and get busy. Why is she allowed to run loose and "blow you off"? This is not just a "stage" - if you don't get on top of things now, she will learn that she can do what she wants and become unmanageable. She sounds like a smart, tough and independent-minded dog, but you need to revisit many of the training basics with her, especially proofing the recall. I'd suggest getting an e-collar and learning how to use it - like others on this board, I have found Ed Frawley's DVD on this very helpful. I recommend the Basic Obedience DVD also, and the training articles and podcasts on this site. Good luck.

The experts will jump in here but from what I read, Summer is nowhere near ready to be off-leash. While her recall may be very good at home, under distractions she is, as you said, blowing you off.

If this is something you want to try and work on, put her on a long line and take a few steps back in recall training. Keep yummy treats on you and make sure coming back to you is a rewarding thing. An ecollar can be a very helpful training aid...not sure if this is the right way to go.

Given her evasion history, I know I would be very leery of allowing this dog to run free.

If you haven't already, look into and talk to Lab rescues. That might be a better way to go than a shelter and certainly better for Summer than becoming part of that other lady's "herd".

I think it's amazing you spent so much time and effort rescuing Summer and her pups.

Thank you for your replies. You all have not told me anything I have not already told myself.

I know the first thing I have to do is decide whether I want to keep her and put in the time/work to train her. I have the know how to do it, but I'm not sure I want to go through the work at my age, and re-homing her is not so cut and dried either.

If I could re-home Summer to some one other than the lady with all the dogs, I would. I have volunteered in several breed rescues in the past and recently helped my elderly neighbor, who was moving into an assisted living facility, find the perfect home for his dog, but when my friend gave up on "Summer" this lady expressed the desire to have her, so he told her if she caught her she could have her. She and her kids chased Summer around all summer and couldn't catch her and when I was the one to catch her, by not chasing her and getting her to trust me, this lady told me if I wanted her I could have her, saying it was only right, since I worked so hard to catch her, (plus she took three of the puppies!), but she also told me if I decide I don't want her, she wants her and told me not to give her to anyone else!

Another reason I don't want to give Summer to her is because even though this lady is a lot younger than I am, she is extremely busy and she told me Summer would be tied up at her house. I know she does not exercise any of her other dogs. Other friends, however, tell me what happens to Summer once she leaves my house is not my concern, and they are right, but that is why in good conscience I can't give her to anyone I know before I place her that she will not be exercised etc.

I also realize I could tell this lady since she was not the one to catch her, she now has no claim on the dog, but I feel that is splitting hairs and I really don't want to make an enemy of her, because she was the only one willing to try to help me catch Summer.

I guess basically I just wanted some input from others here to try to help me decide what to do. I know ultimately it is my decision.

I also feel if I re-home her I am letting her down, which is ridiculous too, because Summer came to me because of the hot dogs, (it took three weeks of tossing them to her and tossing them closer and closer to me until she eventually came and took them from my hand and then would let me pet her etc.) not because she thought I was anyone special.

well, you were special enough to put all that time and effort into getting her to trust you without frightening her - i do think that's pretty special!

 Quote: Lois Dugre

this lady told me if I wanted her I could have her, saying it was only right, since I worked so hard to catch her, (plus she took three of the puppies!), but she also told me if I decide I don't want her, she wants her and told me not to give her to anyone else!

honestly, just b/c this woman has asked/told you not to give summer to anyone else doesn't mean you have any obligation to her. your obligation is to summer, and i think your instincts that this lady would not be a good home are right. i think it's terrible not to exercise any dog, and summer in particular sounds like a dog that would do poorly in that environment, in my (limited) experience.

 Quote: lois dugre

but I don't know if I can survive this "stage" Summer is going through.

Help please! Thanks!

I am sure you know, after being around dogs for as long as you have, that this is not a "stage". This is an issue that you need to correct. She is not going to suddenly "come out of it".
The longer she is allowed to blow you off, the harder it is going to be to teach her that what she is doing is unacceptable.

You need to make yourself the FUNNEST thing in the world for her,
so much in fact, that she ignores, leaves or comes back everytime she hears you calling her.
I would exercise her more daily to make sure she is tired and then work on her recall.

She has been running for most of her life it sounds like, so she has learned that this is okay. Now it is up to you to "fix it".
I would not give her up.

People who help save an animal, always want to give it a home, only realizing afterwards that the dog is more of a challenge than they want to put up with.

It sounds as though you can help this dog and I commend you for that.
I would not give her to a home with 8 other dogs, due to the fact that she is probably pretty "doggy" anyway and that will make training her harder than ever. The woman who helped you may have a good heart, and that is fine, but you have the determination, knowledge and the good heart to help this dog, and
that is way better for the dog that someone feeling bad for her.

Good luck and keep us posted.

 Quote: lois dugre

When we took her out of his vehicle she "freaked out", slipped her collar and got away from him and ran off. She ran around our small town all summer and no one could catch her. My friend and I tried a live trap etc., but she somehow tripped it without getting caught and after that would not go in again. We, of course, called the previous owners but she would not come even to them, so after two weeks my friend and the previous owners gave up on her, saying she was "ruined", but I just could not and spent my summer trying to somehow catch her.

What a horrible diagnosis! I remember when I adopted Bella, she did the exact same thing! I am sure a few regulars remember me talking about our "first kiss."

When I adopted Bella, I thought I was getting a puppy. Well, I was standing at the apartment door, I heard her owner say, "OK, Bella...are you ready?!" Then the door swings open, and 70 lb. full grown Bella jumps up, put her paws on my chest, and nips my face! "Holy crap!", I was thinking...

Well, I forgot to tell you all about the fact that she had also learned to slip her collar. (Probably because the idiots had put her in a collar that was too big for her; they had even punched a new hole that still wasn't tight enough... )

After Bella and I "met" in the apartment, I took her out in to the hall. Well, it didn't take but about 5 seconds before she showed me this "trick!" Luckily, we were in an enclosed hall and, I could trap her! So, I spent a couple of minutes trying to put her collar back on, and when I finally got it back on, we proceeded outside.

Well, she went basically buckwild! Then she did another "Houdini" out of the collar, but this time she was outside, and just ran straight over to this nice young lady about 20 ft. away. She ran in front of the lady, and crouched in front of her, tail wagging a million miles an hour! I think she was in the mood for another kiss!

You should have seen the look on that lady's face! I just jumped on top of her, and told the stunned girl I was sorry, and spent another few minutes getting that crappy collar back on...and cursing the collar...

 Quote: lois dugre

Basically, Summer is a great dog. She is quiet in the outdoor kennel and seems to be housebroken etc. I have the feeling somewhere along the line she has had some training, because she walks on leash beautifully and has (mostly) a phenomenal recall. I trained her to a retriever whistle, and she responds very well to it.

You just said it. This is a great dog.

 Quote: lois dugre

My problem is: The "honeymoon period" is now over and she is becoming bolder and has began to run into the neighbors yard on our walks. She will, at a certain point, "blow me off" and run into their yard eventhough I tell her "no", which she "usually" responds to very well". She will eventually come when I blow the whistle, but this is very annoying, and with two other dogs and my age, I feel totally overwhelmed by this at times. I have entertained the idea of giving her to the other lady, but I can't bring myself to do it. I love this dog and see a lot of potential in her, but to be honest, I feel "too old" to cope.

Just a second ago, you said she is great on lead. Why not let her be in her element? Besides, she cannot be off lead, you don't have a good enough recall for that.

 Quote: lois dugre

I have an appointment to get her spayed this coming Friday, and I really do want to keep her, because my other dogs are getting up there (11 years old each), but I don't know if I can survive this "stage" Summer is going through.

I am going to recommend an article Ed wrote that I think will help:

Groundwork

And here is my advice to you:

You have an awesome dog with a wonderful story. I think you are very sweet to care so much for this dog and the litter that would have surely had some severe problems were it not for the summer, and a very nice lady! This dog is very independent right now because of its history, and it will be tough to get it to respect you, because it is so used to providing for itself.

I have heard that if you let the dog play the "you can't catch me" game a few times, it makes it really hard to stop the behavior. It is really fun for them to run from you, I guess! Well, Summer played that game with you every day for months! Imagine the imprinting that made on the way she looks at you.

As Ed always says, a dog can love you, but not respect you. I think another facet of this concept is a dog can trust you, but not respect you. Just because the dog can perform a good sit at home, or recall in the backyard, doesn't indicate respect.

Groundwork will be a really good step to get the dog to look at you as the pack leader, and look to you for direction. Otherwise, she will always disrespect you.

Good luck!!

Find a lab rescue, talk to your local SPCA, put up fliers and post online. You can certainly find someone to take her. If the woman gives you crap tell her what you told us ("I'm sure you could provide a very capable loving home for summer but after spending so much time with her feel she'd be happier with a family/single guy/in the county etc").

If you are going back and forth I'd say rehome her, she'll be very happy in a nice home and then take a bit and decide if you want another dog, make an informed decision, not one based on emotion.

Lois,
I do sympathize - you have already invested time and energy in this dog, and you like her. Plus giving her to someone who plans to keep her tied up rather than train her is just horrible. Is the main problem the off leash recall? Because that can be fixed. I agree with Sarah Morris that given Summer's history she should not be off leash at this point. Sarah is also right on with her suggestion that you go back to working with a long line and treats to make sure the dog really understands the recall. However - maybe I misread your original post - but I thought you had already taught the recall command, and the problem is that Summer has now found out that you cannot enforce it when she is off leash? Hence my suggestion of an e-collar as a long "invisible" leash to remind the dog that you are still in control.

If is is any encouragement, when I adopted my GSD Dillon at 14 months old he had already been turned back to the shelter twice by previous owners because he was untrained and he ran away and chased deer, elk, horses, cows - if it moved, he'd go after it. We worked first on the basics, including using a long line and treats to teach the recall. Then I started him with an e-collar with a pager (it beeps), putting him in both the collar and on the long line, calling him while simultaneously beeping the collar (no stim) and rewarding him when he came to me. He pretty soon figured out that the beep meant "come" (and treats). Next we dispensed with the long line and just went with the collar - inevitably he soon blew me off when I beeped and he had a more enticing distraction, and I zapped him just hard enough to get his attention. A week or so working on this, and I could recall him 100% from anywhere with just the beep. Dillon has been my good hiking buddy for two years now - I use a collar with a 1-mile range when we are in the mountains, and when I need to recall him I just beep him back to me. I very rarely have to zap him any more - he knows the score. He no longer chases game or livestock - in fact just last week I was complimented on his manners by a horse rider we met on the trail. However, I never let him off leash anywhere without his e-collar on. I don't ever want to be in a situation where I give a command ("come") and I cannot enforce it. Dillon is smart and pigheaded enough to work out fast if obedience is optional in certain circumstances (such as off leash) and that's unacceptable.

That's what has worked for me and Dillon, anyway, and it honestly was not that hard to do. It sounds like you have made a lot of progress with Summer already - don't give up now!